麻豆社

Downloaded from www.bbc.co.uk/radio4

听

THE ATTACHED TRANSCRIPT WAS TYPED FROM A RECORDING AND NOT COPIED FROM AN ORIGINAL SCRIPT.听 BECAUSE OF THE RISK OF MISHEARING AND THE DIFFICULTY IN SOME CASES OF IDENTIFYING INDIVIDUAL SPEAKERS, THE 麻豆社 CANNOT VOUCH FOR ITS COMPLETE ACCURACY.

听

听

IN TOUCH 鈥� The RNIB Closes Its Giant Print Library; The Disordered Eye On The 麻豆社 iPlayer

听

TX:听 10.11.2020听 2040-2100

听

PRESENTER:听 听听听听听听听 PETER WHITE

听

PRODUCER:听 听听听听听听听听听 MIKE YOUNG

听

听

听

White

Good evening.听 Tonight, the RNIB鈥檚 plans to close its large print library 鈥� is this the predictable end of an outdated underused format, as many of us switch to eBooks and audio services, or could loyal users of this service have expected it to survive?

听

And disabled artist and filmmaker Richard Butchins will be telling us about his latest programme, challenging the importance of good vision in making great art.

听

Butchins

The vision issues that they had meant that they worked in a different way from the way they worked previously and that they added a kind of whole other layer of work, intentionally or otherwise.

听

White

More from Richard Butchins in a few minutes.

听

But first, the RNIB has announced the planned closure of its large print library, which is based in Peterborough.听 They say borrowing numbers are falling while costs are rising and users are switching to devices, like iPads and Kindles.听 But how much warning have regular borrowers had for this and what alternatives are open to them?

听

David Clarke is the RNIB鈥檚 Director of Services.听 So, David, this has come, as far as I was aware, out of the blue, what are the reasons for this?

听

Clarke

Well Peter, there are a number of reasons that have led us to this decision.听 There is no doubt that customer behaviour has changed significantly and people are taking advantage of digital services and digital downloads.听 I think whilst our large print library or giant print library has some really positive features, there are some significant restrictions.听 The books we have are of a limited number 鈥� around about seven and a half thousand 鈥� the way we produce them means they are particularly bulky and have to be mailed and they are one size fits all, literally, in terms of 24 size font.听 And I think customer behaviour has said that actually within three swipes on many devices I鈥檓 now able to get the font I want, the colour contrast that I want and much more wide access to many, many titles.听 And so, I think that鈥檚 why you鈥檝e seen a major drop off in usage.

听

White

But that won鈥檛 apply to everybody, will it?听 I mean there鈥檒l still be some people for whom using online services or using other equipment is technically quite difficult.听 What about them?

听

Clarke

We have actually thought about those people and there鈥檚 two things we can do in that regard.听 The first thing is, of course, that we have a personal transcription service which is free of charge, so we are still able to provide books in whatever format people choose.听 We, also, of course, continue to hold these books and therefore are very happy to give these to schools and to individuals who need them, as a result of the closure of the library.听 But where people are not confident with technology or indeed can鈥檛 afford technology, our Tech for Life people will assist in terms of helping user technology and where affordability鈥檚 an issue we have our grant scheme that will enable people to get the equipment they need.

听

White

Can we just dig into the numbers issue a bit more?听 You say borrowing numbers have been steadily falling, your own figures state that 11,700 large print books were loaned out in 2017, that number was 11,200 the next year and 10,700 last year 鈥� it鈥檚 hardly a collapse in lending is it?

听

Clarke

Well the pro-rata number is actually reducing significantly and is down to about six and half thousand this year on 1200 customers.听 And in 2014 we had 4,000 customers using the library.听 And one of the things that we have been able to do is assist people using digital services by providing a number of suitable devices that鈥檚 helped meet customer demand in that area.听 So, I think there definitely is a reduction and I think the quality point comes into focus here as well, in terms of sustainability.听 We were able to put on about 500 new books a year but in actual fact, if you look at some of the digital services, there is very much out there that people can get through those services.听 And if you compare it with, for example, our talking book service, where we鈥檝e gone from 21,000 users to 45, 000 users over the same period, you can see the difference in demand.听 And I would also add, the other thing we鈥檙e doing is working on our online reading service to bring many, many more books in ePub, which, of course, you鈥檒l be aware of has grown significantly, so that we can bring those books to people as well and development work undergoing at the moment, coupled with our Kindle skill that links with Easy Reader app, again, are making it easier for readers to access the books they want when they want them.

听

White

You鈥檒l continue to run a braille library service I assume?

听

Clarke

Absolutely, we will, yeah.

听

White

You鈥檙e loaning out just over 10,000 braille books a year and that number is gradually falling as well, if falling borrowing is a criteria you鈥檙e using, how long before that service goes to?

听

Clarke

I can commit to you that we will continue to provide hard copy braille but there is no doubt that customers are choosing to use digital braille more often, there are more low-cost devices.听 I was on here a couple of years ago talking to you about the Orbit reader, which is making books more accessible.听 But we are still committed to providing braille.听 And it makes logical sense that a charity using charitable money would only commit to provide services that people are using and people are continuing to use hard copy braille and we will continue to provide it.

听

White

You said you鈥檝e got quite a lot of 鈥� well obviously 鈥� you鈥檝e got a lot of large print books.听 What exactly are you planning to do with those?

听

Clarke

We鈥檝e been in touch with a number of schools, a number of individuals, who鈥檝e clearly, as I said, some people who expressed disappointment about our decision but we鈥檙e very happy to provide those books to schools and individuals, so anybody who wants to get hold of particular books is very welcome to contact our helpline and we can arrange for those to be sent out.听 People will be welcome to keep the books that they鈥檝e borrowed.听 We鈥檝e had a number of partnerships over the years, across the world, with various people and charities who need books and we will make sure that those books are put to good use.

听

White

Just to look at audio books for a moment.听 I mean there are lots of RNIB readers who are favouring CDs and USB sticks for their talking books but there are commercial services, like Amazon Audible as well, will you be able to compete with the likes of them in the future?

听

Clarke

Well I don鈥檛 think it鈥檚 a matter of competing with commercial audio library services, I think it鈥檚 a matter of dovetailing with them and we have some excellent relationships with publishers and other audio content providers who share their concept with us free of charge and that鈥檚 largely why we hope to significantly increase the amount of ePub content.听 I think the way that we鈥檝e managed to change the way we operate 鈥� you鈥檒l be aware that we were on late last year talking about our online reading service 鈥� I鈥檓 delighted to say that we鈥檙e nearing 9,000 users of that service now compared with the maximum of 5,000 users under the old system of Overdrive.听 And we have an obligation, I think, to react to customer behaviour, which is why I say we worked with Dolphin to create the Easy Reader, we鈥檝e now created the skill that goes with Easy Reader and the Kindle and we鈥檝e also invested significantly in our online library that brings many more titles to blind and partially sighted people.

听

White

David Clarke, thank you very much indeed.

听

And thanks for all your emails sent to intouch@bbc.co.uk.听 Using public transport still remains a concern and particularly in London, where the rules about assistance that requires physical contact between customers and Transport for London staff have still not currently been agreed.听 That鈥檚 despite assurances from TFL that discussions with unions are taking place which should have finally been sorted out last month.听 Well Lenita Conradi [phon.] got in touch to say: 鈥淚鈥檝e always had excellent service from TFL as a totally blind person, however, when I was hoping to travel on the Metropolitan line the staff at Kings Cross told the staff at Pinner that because of covid TFL is not currently offering assistance.听 TFL provided a taxi but the taxi took a while to come and I missed my train out of Kings Cross.鈥�

听

And Naki [phon.] also emailed us.听 He said: 鈥淚鈥檓 a blind Londoner, I鈥檝e been travelling on the Underground for many years and have always loved it.听 Recently, though, the experience has been horrendous due to the pandemic and I鈥檝e been getting mixed messages.听 I鈥檝e been pushing for better guidance and policies since June and it felt as if we were in the right direction but I鈥檝e now been getting mixed messages again.鈥澨�

听

Well Naki so have we.听 So, we鈥檙e going to be seeking clear answers for you on next week鈥檚 programme, after all lockdown or no there are still visually impaired people who need to travel for the same permitted reasons as anyone else 鈥� work, education, caring duties etc.

听

And to what extent is this a London issue?听 We understand that other train operators elsewhere have been offering physical sighted guiding assistance again.听

听

Well, do let us know your own experiences of travelling by public transport during the pandemic wherever you are in the UK.

听

Now, on the 麻豆社 iPlayer right now, to watch whenever you wish, is a programme by disabled artist and filmmaker Richard Butchins.听 It鈥檚 called the Disordered Eye and it aims to challenge the importance of good vision in making great art.听 Richard suggests that visual impairments have contributed positively to its creation.

听

Here's a flavour of the programme with Richard visiting an exhibition of paintings by the celebrated blind artist Sargy Mann at the Attenborough Centre in Leicester.

听

Clip 鈥� the Disordered Eye

One of the things I particularly like about this gallery is they provide sensory suitcases, which is pretty awesome right, because it鈥檚 a blind person鈥檚 exhibition and these are for people who are ND 鈥� neurodivergent 鈥� like myself.听 And inside it鈥檚 got loads of really cool stuff that helps you look at the paintings, like weird sunglasses and stuff and a kaleidoscope.听 But the serious point is that not everyone can look at art in the standard way and providing stuff to help people experience the art is like a really good thing to do.听 And it鈥檚 fun.

听

White

That鈥檚 a taster of the Disordered Eye and a little earlier I asked Richard Butchins how he came to make this programme.

听

Butchins

As a disable artist I鈥檝e always been interested in the impact and contribution of disability of all kinds to art and I think it鈥檚 very much under-recognised or under-valued.听 And so, this was an idea that occurred to me and fortunately the 麻豆社 said yes, let鈥檚 make this programme.

听

White

But is there an assumption, do you think, that people make that somehow if there鈥檚 something wrong with your eyesight then that鈥檚 going to really make art a no, no for you?

听

Butchins

Well I kind of suppose it鈥檚 implicit, isn鈥檛 it, people assume you need good vision to 鈥� particularly visual art, say painting, for example, or photography 鈥� that you need good vision to make good art and I鈥檓 saying that that isn鈥檛 necessarily the case.

听

White

Now, of course, there are plenty of examples to back up your thesis.听 I mean the classic artist with sight problems that comes to mind is Monet, who had cataracts, and you also focus on Degas, I think, who had retinal eye disease.听 And your programme talks about how they used their disabilities in a positive and clever way doesn鈥檛 it?

听

Butchins

That鈥檚 what I think, I mean it鈥檚 not necessarily, shall we say, a standard approach to the subject.听 I mean most traditional art historians 鈥� sorry art historians if I鈥檝e got you wrong 鈥� don鈥檛 really take that approach.听 I think that it鈥檚 clear to me that whether they intended it or not their vision issues that they had meant that they worked in a different way from the way they worked previously and that they added a kind of whole other layer of work, intentionally or otherwise, but I don鈥檛 think it really matters because that鈥檚 what happened.听 I mean there are other artists who are 鈥� I didn鈥檛 have time to do all the artists 鈥� but in their particular cases I think they鈥檙e very well known and you could see very specifically how their art changed as a result of their vision issues.

听

White

So, perhaps, just to give an example, I mean with Monet, for those who are not art buffs, how did his eyesight 鈥� how did it affect how his paintings look?

听

Butchins

Well, I mean the first thing, I suppose, that you would notice is that cataracts causes your visual colour palette to change, so it becomes increasingly yellow and sort of like a sort of sepia toned painting.听 So, he increasingly applies layers of colour to his paintings based on 鈥� you know, he knows where the colours are on his palette because he lays his palette the same way and so he puts a bit of red or blue or whatever in, but of course he鈥檚 not really sure quite how much he鈥檚 put on because he can鈥檛 see it, so, he tends to sort of like put on more.听 And I think the thing I notice is that the Water Lily paintings, for example, become increasingly abstract as his vision changes.听 And after he had his cataracts removed his work kind of reverts back to a more traditional Monet style of painting.听 And the interesting thing is that when he saw the paintings that he鈥檇 done he burnt pretty much all of them.听 I think his family saved some sort of 25 or 30 of them but he just destroyed them all because he hated them.

听

White

But what you鈥檙e saying, in a way, is that when he had the cataracts it gave his painting an individuality?

听

Butchins

Well they had an individuality before that, I mean let鈥檚 not underplay Monet, a brilliant painter.听 He had to adapt his way of painting and his way of seeing to a new 鈥� a new arena and that that changed his work.听 And I think that contributed to the way art itself changed in the next century, shall we say.

听

White

I mean really you want to talk a bit in your documentary about sight, how we see with our brains, if you like, and not necessarily with our eyes.

听

Butchins

Yeah, absolutely, I mean I think the kind of standard idea that obviously the eyes are optical equipment, if you like.听 A lot of comparisons are made between a camera and a computer and it鈥檚 not really the case, I mean there鈥檚 a very complex neuro-system going on in the brain and different parts of the brain process different bits of vision 鈥� so movement and colour and form and content and so on 鈥� actually the raw information is fed into the brain and that鈥檚 where the picture, if you like, is created.听 For those who have got vision, for example, it allows an apple to stay green when you got from like a bright sunlit outside to a darkened room inside with a tungsten lamp, for example, as far as you鈥檙e concerned the apple is green but in terms of reflective wavelengths the apple changes colour.

听

White

This is an issue that we looked at before on the programme.听 I remember interviewing the painter Sargy Mann and this was at a time when he had not long begun to lose his sight but he鈥檇 begun to think about the effect that this was having on his painting.听 I鈥檇 just like to play you a little extract of this, it was about 20 years ago that we did this:

听

Archive 鈥� Sargy Mann

Losing my sight to the level that it鈥檚 at now meant that I couldn鈥檛 really see other people鈥檚 paintings or books anymore, hardly.听 And in a way I think that was quite good for me because I may have been rather too influenced by other painters.听 And I think that possibly I鈥檓 painting better now because I鈥檓 more left to my own resources, such as they are.

听

White

Very much really in line with what you鈥檙e saying and of course Sargy lost most of his sight and still went on painting.听 I think you鈥檝e talked to his family for your documentary, haven鈥檛 you?

听

Butchins

I talked to his son and his widow.听 Sargy Mann is a brilliant painter, first of all, for any of your viewers that don鈥檛 know his work and he painted, I think, some of his best work actually after he鈥檇 lost his vision.听 It freed him from the kind of constraints of the norms that he learnt.听 It鈥檚 true, I mean it鈥檚 for him to say, not anyone else, I mean production of art is an internal 鈥� it鈥檚 an internal thing, it happens inside the person that鈥檚 making it and you look at art with your eyes but actually, if you think about it, when you look at a painting your response to it isn鈥檛 really about what you鈥檙e looking at is it, it鈥檚 about how you feel or what things it sparks off inside you and stuff like that.听 So, yeah, I mean I鈥檝e got great admiration for Sargy Mann and his work.

听

White

I mean are there other contemporary painters that you talked to or indeed artists in other fields that you鈥檇 like to draw our attention to?

听

Butchins

Yes, well I mean in the film I talk to a Scottish landscape artist called Keith Salmon, whose work, I think, is lovely.听 He鈥檚 got diabetic retinopathy which is the same condition that I posit that Cezanne had, but we鈥檒l touch on that another time, it鈥檚 a big subject.听 And he paints beautiful landscapes and they are still landscapes, you can see they are landscapes, there鈥檚 some sort of abstract feeling about them.听 And he鈥檚 in the film and he explains his working process and what it鈥檚 meant to him and how it鈥檚 changed his work.听 And I mean we have another artist, who鈥檚 a sculpture, called Aaron McPeake, who makes sculptures out of bronze, some sort of metal, but he casts 鈥� I mean he鈥檚 blind and he casts them, he wonders about with a crucible full of hot metal.听 But he makes his sculptures so that you can hit them 鈥� they鈥檙e like gongs as well 鈥� so he鈥檚 very involved in sound and sound as part of the sculpture.听 And I think he鈥檚 very talented and we talked to him.听 There鈥檚 a couple of other people.听 I do focus on, if you like, contemporary artists who are alive because I think that is what we should be doing.听 There are a few, yeah.

听

White

Was it your intention that this programme should challenge the perceptions people have about vision loss?

听

Butchins

I think it was my intention that this film should challenge perceptions that people have about disability in general and vision loss, specifically.听 I mean this film is about a sensory loss, if you like.听 Really I鈥檓 interested in challenging the kind of perception that people have of disability in all its forms.

听

White

Richard Butchins.听 And the Disordered Eye is on the 麻豆社 iPlayer now and I know Richard is very pleased to know that there is audio description available with it.

听

That鈥檚 all for this week.听 If you want to give us your views on anything that you鈥檝e heard you can email intouch@bbc.co.uk.听 Do go to our website bbc.co.uk/intouch where you can find this and other editions of the programme.听 From me, Peter White, producer Mike Young and studio managers Jonathan Esp and Carwyn Griffith.听 Goodbye.