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IN TOUCH 鈥� Voting in Elections

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TX:听 03.11.20听 2040-2100

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PRESENTER:听 听听听听听听听 PETER WHITE

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PRODUCER:听 听听听听听听听听听 MIKE YOUNG

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White

Good evening.听 Over the next few hours in what鈥檚 being seen as an election of huge significance, not just for the US but for the world, we鈥檒l begin to find out how America has voted.听 Now for most that question means 鈥� who did they vote for 鈥� but for visually impaired Americans it also means, quite simply, what method did you use to cast your vote and how secret and independent was it.听 Later, we鈥檒l be crossing the pond to find the answers to those questions.听 But for In Touch listeners this seemed the ideal night to shine a light on what鈥檚 happening here in the UK and whether we have a voting system for blind and partially sighted people that stands up to democratic scrutiny.

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We owe the fact that we can look at this issue with any degree of optimism to a lady from Norfolk 鈥� Rachael Andrews.听 Last year Rachael sought a judicial review of the voting process, claiming that her right to a secret and independent vote had been breached.听 She won.听 Her case hinged on the use of a TVD or tactile voting device.听 Now by law these should be available in every polling station in the country, the plastic device has a row of signature sized compartments and the idea is that you place it over your polling card and mark your favoured candidate.听 Rachael told us what triggered her case.

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Andrews

There is no way of having a secret vote, you have to have somebody next to you reading it out and then you try and mark accordingly.听 And I often found, also, that because the tactile voting templates, I鈥檝e had different designs 鈥� I鈥檝e had the lift up flap box one and I鈥檝e also had one that had some sort of saw tooth arrangement 鈥� you can鈥檛 tell, always, where you are, even marking it.听 So, it鈥檚 impossible to get a private independent vote and that鈥檚 why I brought the case.听

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There are many different technological advances now that would involve not a lot of money, I don鈥檛 think, and would allow me and my husband and several of my friends and all visually impaired people to vote independently.

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White

Rachael Andrews.

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Well giving judgement in the High Court Mr Justice Swift agreed with Rachael.听 He said: 鈥淭o meet legal obligations under the Representation of the People Act the device must allow the blind voter to mark the ballot paper against the name of her candidate of choice, without any need for assistance.鈥澨� The conclusion 鈥� the law was being broken by the UK government.

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Following the ruling in May 2019, RNIB began working with the government to try to find a suitable lawful alternative to the current provisions.听 However, when a snap General Election was called in December it was decided that there wasn鈥檛 enough time to find a fully accessible voting solution before polling day.听 In a survey conducted by the RNIB since then only around one in 10 blind or almost blind people felt they were able to vote secretly and independently, and less than half of those with partial sight.

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So, with the next lot of elections 鈥� covid permitting 鈥� due in May 2021 what are the options.听 Well I鈥檒l be bringing in the Chair of the RNIB and the Minister for Constitutional Affairs in a moment but first, let鈥檚 hear the views of two visually impaired voters 鈥� Anna Rigby, who鈥檚 totally blind and Holly Mathis who has some sight.听 Anna, what have your experiences been like?

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Rigby

I have never been able to vote secretly and independently.听 I have looked at the tactile voting device, I think it鈥檚 completely unfit for purpose because you need somebody to put the voting paper the right way round, then you have to line it up, you have to actually check with someone that it is lined up properly.听 Once you鈥檝e had the candidates read out to you and you鈥檝e chosen your tick box and you鈥檝e ticked your box you have to then really ask the person again that the pen鈥檚 actually worked and that you鈥檝e ticked the box.听 I鈥檝e actually not bothered with it; I usually just get the member of staff at the polling station to tick the box for me and just hope that I can trust them to do it properly.

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White

So, you just accept that you鈥檙e not going to have an independent vote basically 鈥� a secret vote?

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Rigby

I鈥檝e got no choice, that鈥檚 the only way I can vote.

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White

And what would you like to see instead?

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Rigby

I would like to see a system where I can vote completely independently, where I get the voting information beforehand and in an ideal world, really, there should be a system that鈥檚 either electronic, i.e. maybe a button press system at the polling station it could be or it could be a system over the telephone or it can be online.听 A pen needing to be used, as a totally blind person, is a total joke.

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White

Let me bring in Holly.听 Now you have some sight and you鈥檙e originally from the United States.听 What is it about voting in the UK that you鈥檝e found so difficult?

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Mathis

Every single time I鈥檝e voted in person I鈥檝e had a really disappointing experience from the polling staff.听 The first time I went with my husband, who鈥檚 British, and because he was there, I think the staff were quite happy to kind of leave me to him to sort out.听 So, they 鈥� apart from asking for our names and addresses separately, they just carried on their own conversation.听 I wasn鈥檛 offered any kind of help or given any options of what might be available as a partially sighted voter.听 I use a white cane, so to them they鈥檝e no idea if I have any sight at all.听 They handed the ballot out to me without saying that it was there, so just held their hand in the air.听 And my husband had to take the ballot from them and explained to me that he had it and hand it to me.听 He had to lead me over to the polling booth.听 But then I had to get the vote from the polling booth to the ballot box, which is a big black box sitting on the table that has a small black slot in it.听 I had to fumble around myself.

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White

So, really it is the attitude rather than the method of voting for you?

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Mathis

Yes, I鈥檓 lucky that I am able to see well enough to be confident I鈥檓 casting my vote for the person I want but everything in the process was really stressful.

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White

Let me bring in Eleanor Southwood, who is Chair of the RNIB.听 Tell us a bit more about the findings in your survey.

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Southwood

The numbers are pretty stark aren鈥檛 they, I mean if only one in 10 of us who are totally blind feels able to vote independently and in secret, which I think as both Anna and Holly have made clear, is a fundamental right for us, I think that鈥檚 pretty shocking.听 We also know that lots of people walk away from the polling station having voted in some way shape or form but not being entirely confident that they have voted for who they wanted to.听 Holly鈥檚 also talked about the experience with polling station staff who often perhaps are unfamiliar with even the tactile device, which as you鈥檝e outlined is sort of woefully inadequate as it is but at least does exist.听 So, huge issues for people in knowing who the candidates are and where the polling station is, of course, because polling cards aren鈥檛 accessible either.听 Knowing who鈥檚 standing for election and being able to make a choice and the all important being able to cast the actual ballot.

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White

There are alternative ways of voting for visually impaired people.听 There are postal votes, for example, there are proxy votes.听 Are visually impaired people making enough use of these?

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Southwood

We don鈥檛 think it鈥檚 right that you would feel sort of forced into choosing a postal or proxy because it鈥檚 such a difficult, stressful and often quite sort of undignified experience attempting to exercise your democratic right.听 Of course for lots of people a postal vote is more accessible, perhaps because the lighting in your home you can set it up so you can actually access the ballot form and all the instructions that come with it, often which are quite complicated, but for lots of us it doesn鈥檛 change the issue at all because it鈥檚 still the same ballot paper, it鈥檚 still the same issues about getting information about candidates and casting your ballot.

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White

So, what kind of solutions have you looked at, because you鈥檙e having these talks with the Cabinet Office, and of those what do visually impaired people say they want?

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Southwood

There鈥檚 a huge range of views on what would be ideal and it鈥檚 important to say that we are really pleased that the government are committed to finally addressing this.听 We鈥檝e talked with the Cabinet Office about a range of options.听 At the moment electronic voting isn鈥檛 an option here and so the option that is coming through as the favourite, if you like, and the one that will be going into user testing really quickly in the next couple of weeks, is an audio device.听 So, you go into the polling station, you鈥檙e given an audio device where you can listen to the candidates listed, so you know both the candidate鈥檚 name, their party and which number they are on the ballot paper and that would then be used in conjunction with the tactile voting device, if that鈥檚 your choice or of course, lots of people want to use their own magnifiers or perhaps an app on your smartphone to actually cast the ballot.

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White

So, you take in a piece of equipment and then have the order of the voters in your ears as you vote, is that right?

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Southwood

Exactly right.听 So, you can listen again, take the time that you need to familiarise yourself with the candidates.听 We鈥檙e also really keen that lists of candidates are published electronically in advance, we don鈥檛 see any reason why they can鈥檛 be but very often they鈥檙e not, so that you can, at least, have a sense before you go to the polling station where there鈥檚 often quite a lot to think about in any case.

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White

Let me bring in Chloe Smith, she鈥檚 Minister at the Cabinet Office, with responsibility for Constitutional Affairs.听 Minister, you鈥檝e been listening to all this, it鈥檚 not good, is it, for a government to be told by a judge that it鈥檚 breaking electoral law?

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Smith

Well, I mean, I think, the main point is that it鈥檚 high time to make this change and I鈥檓 really excited, actually, about the work being done with Eleanor and her colleagues at the RNIB because I hope we can finally now make a difference on this.

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White

So, this audio solution that we鈥檝e heard about 鈥� in May 2021 there are local council elections and also the election of some directly elected mayors, how practical will it be to have this audio system available by May 2021, so someone like Anna or Holly, for that matter, could use it?

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Smith

Well we鈥檙e working hard to make sure that鈥檚 the case.听 We are doing a lot of testing at the moment, we鈥檙e obviously having to work through issues that might relate to coronavirus or any other changes in the meantime, so I wouldn鈥檛 want to play that down.

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White

Is there a cost issue there because presumably you鈥檒l have to have this equipment in every polling station?

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Smith

Well of course there is a cost issue but that鈥檚 not important actually because a. this is a legal duty but b. it鈥檚 a moral duty and we鈥檙e going to get this done.听 If I may, I want to just point out something else that really is a key issue drawn out by Holly鈥檚 comments actually about how the staff at polling stations also could benefit from more training鈥�

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White

I was going to ask you about that, yes.

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Smith

Well exactly, I mean Holly鈥檚 story is really, really concerning obviously and one of the pieces of work I am doing 鈥� and again with the RNIB and others 鈥� is to get the training right for polling station staff, that鈥檚 a really important part of the package.

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White

Thanks for the time being.听 We will come back to you.听 Meanwhile, the devolved nations are also seeking their own solutions to this problem.听 Scotland has elections in 2021 for all members of the Scottish Parliament and last June the Scottish Parliament voted to set up pilots to test the viability of electronic voting methods for people with disabilities.听

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Graham Day, he鈥檚 the Minister for Parliamentary Business, told me what should now happen as a result of this vote.

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Day

The voter accesses an online website, using a unique code. 听The completed vote automatically converts into an encrypted QR code, that contains the voter鈥檚 choice.听 A printed document鈥檚 then produced with the encrypted QR code on it, then there would be a number of options for the voter to submit the printed version without risking any possibility of revealing the vote or they could send the QR code electronically.

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White

What does it actually mean to the voter, what would they be able to do?

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Day

I guess the simple way of putting it is to vote in secret, perhaps in their own home, using an electronic device and then to submit their vote without having to require the assistance of anyone else which takes us that large step closer to treating voters with a visual impairment in the same way as anyone else.

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White

Chloe Smith, are you working with, talking to, the devolved nations?

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Smith

Yes, that鈥檚 absolutely right.听 There鈥檚 a devolved element of this and a national element to this.听 We do all need to work together to make sure that this actually happens.听 So, we are doing that and doing that with full understanding of how important this is to get right.

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White

Chloe Smith, thank you very much for taking part and it鈥檚 good to hear the optimism that we may have a solution to this by May.

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Now it鈥檚 always useful to see how other countries are tackling these problems.听 Over the past few years In Touch has looked at telephone voting systems in New Zealand, online voting systems in other parts of Europe but tonight, of all nights, we thought it would be good to know how visually impaired people are voting in the United States.

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So, I asked Chris Danielsen of the National Federation of the Blind in the US, just how big an issue is this for them.

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Danielsen

Well, it鈥檚 a huge issue Peter.听 I believe it was in 2002 there was a law passed in the United States called The Help America Vote Act and that law said, for the first time, blind people should have the right to vote privately and independently.听 And the way that it implemented that was to say that every polling place in the United States for federal elections had to have at least one accessible voting machine.听 This would be a voting machine that has audio output and screen magnification and other features to allow blind people and people with other disabilities to vote privately and independently.

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White

So, does that mean therefore that, for example, if you鈥檝e got audio that you go into the polling booth and you can hear the order of the candidates on your card, just how does that work?

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Danielsen

Yes, so typically you have a set of headphones and you also, typically, have a tactile keypad.听 The audio prompts which are, typically, synthesised speech, will walk you through the ballot, it鈥檒l walk you through each contest, you can scroll down and hear the name of each candidate and then you can hit a select button to select the one you want.听 You go through the entire ballot this way, you then have an opportunity to review your entire ballot, where the machine reads all your choices back to you.听 Then what happens is the machine prints out your ballot.

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White

So, how will most visually impaired people be voting in your current election?

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Danielsen

This is an unusual election, obviously, because of the Covid-19 pandemic and so like other voters a lot of people will have voted in advance and they will have voted by mail.听 Now that raises a different issue which is whether mail ballots are accessible.听 Most states set up early voting centres, so you can go before election day and those are also required to have the accessible machines.听 And then some of us will have gone to vote on election day, just like we normally do.

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White

Just setting covid aside for a minute, is this thought now to be the perfect solution or does more need to be done?

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Danielsen

It鈥檚 not a perfect solution, simply because all states don鈥檛 have it in place yet, even though they should.听

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White

If you do have a problem with these machines, can you normally get help at the polling station?

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Danielsen

The poll workers are supposed to know how to operate the machines, that is another problem blind people sometimes experience, sometimes they don鈥檛, sometimes a blind person shows up at the polling place and the machine isn鈥檛 even set up 鈥� that鈥檚 one of the reasons we have our election day hotline.听 I have sometimes had to talk with a poll worker and explain to them how their particular machine works.

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White

Chris Danielsen, telling us how the Americans or some of them, anyway, are doing it, some interesting parallels with us though.

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I must just ask Holly, had this been brought in when you were in the States voting Holly?

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Mathis

I haven鈥檛 voted in person in the US since 2002, so I don鈥檛 remember it being offered to me then.

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White

So, you just missed it by the sound of it.听 How does it sound as a solution to you?

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Mathis

I think that鈥檚 really great.听 I really like the idea.听 Like I say I am able to see the ballot myself but even so I do feel more confident and more reassured.

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White

And you wouldn鈥檛 have to find the black boxes because it prints your vote by the sound of it.

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Mathis

Yeah.

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White

Eleanor, it sill feels as if we haven鈥檛 found a reliable modern solution to this.听 Isn鈥檛 some form of electronic, even online voting, because the American system鈥檚 not online but isn鈥檛 some online voting the ultimate answer?

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Southwood

For lots of people electronic voting is the thing that would feel ideal.听 The focus is on getting something in today that we can absolutely build on and I would hope we鈥檇 continue to look at the most modern options available in the future.

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White

Well, we will, of course, continue to keep a very close eye on this.听 Our thanks to all our guests 鈥� Anna Rigby, Holly Mathis, RNIB Chair Eleanor Southwood and Cabinet Office Minister Chloe Smith.

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Your comments and experiences, as always welcome and just a couple of heads up for next week 鈥� some news has reached us of the planned closure of the RNIB鈥檚 large print library in Peterborough, it will cease operating in January.听 We鈥檒l have more on this next week.听 So, if you use it and you鈥檝e got questions you鈥檇 like us to put do let us know.听 And there鈥檚 what sounds like a fascinating television programme, broadcast tomorrow night on 麻豆社 4 at 9.00 pm, it鈥檚 called the Disordered Eye where filmmaker Richard Butchins challenges the importance of good vision in making great art.听 We鈥檙e going to be talking to him next week.听 And of course, the programme continues to be available after the broadcast on the 麻豆社 iPlayer.

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You can email intouch@bbc.co.uk or go to our website at bbc.co.uk/intouch.听 From me, Peter White, producer Mike Young and studio managers John Cole and Sharon Hughes.听 Goodbye.

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