Â鶹Éç

Firstly praying is a waste of time. Nothing supernatural provoked the earthquake, it is the result of tectonic plates shifting. There is a scientific, rational explanation for everything. If only media would stop using magical words such as 'miracle' and upgrade the general science understanding in everyone. Science is the most beautiful and fulfilling quest for knowledge and explanation of stuff to date. No science does not have all the answers however the seeking goes on.

If anyone has specific evidence of gods, supernatural stuff or life after death then it would make the 9:00 o'clock news.

People are giving generously to disaster relief agencies such as the Red Cross and Doctors without Borders.

"Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF) is an independent humanitarian medical aid organisation. We are committed to providing medical aid where it is most needed, regardless of race, religion, politics or gender and also to raising awareness of the plight of the people we help."



It really irks me that aid groups with bandages in one hand hold bibles in the other. Can't you all help strangers simply because it is the right thing to do?

#1

I've been aware of the 'hierarchy of victims' concept, but now apparently there's a hierarchy of aid agencies. So what if some pray and have a Bible in one of their hands? Get over it!

And they say Christians use humanitarian diasaters to promote their world-view!

#1 - LucyQ -

"There is a scientific, rational explanation for everything."

Prove it!

And then you say...

"No science does not have all the answers however the seeking goes on."

Looks like a contradiction to me.


#2 - upsidedownworld -

Spot on!

upsidedownword;

"I've been aware of the 'hierarchy of victims' concept"

From Â鶹Éç;

"The US president also said he would meet former Presidents George W Bush and Bill Clinton on Saturday to discuss Haiti."

It appears when it comes to the hierarchy of victims in the US government's mind, Haiti ranks above New Orleans. If the Hatians had to depend on President Bush, help from the US might not come until July. From President Clinton? Well he's expert at giving the store away...just look at how he gave it away to North Korea during his administration. We'll see what gratitude America's generousity brings the next time there's a critical vote at the UN. Will the US be able to count on Haiti's support? Don't bet on it.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

upsidedownworld,

I have a little bit of sympathy for what you say in post 2, but then a nutcase post like no. 5 by the rev immediately obliterates any remnant of sympathy. Bringing in the devil etc is counterproductive. Why? Because it is a distraction from learning more about quakes if we ascribe them to the devil. LucyQ very rightly mentioned plate tectonics. Indeed, if we learn more about it, we might learn to predict better when quakes would hit. Predicting that accurately may be as long a time away as the idea of vaccination was away in 1700. Scientific advance can be a tediously slow process. But sometimes, after long hard work, it pays off tons and tons, benefiting (part of) mankind for as long as we will be around on this planet.

By contrast, if we all decide to get on our knees and fold our hands, we will not get any further. It is far better not to promote a mode of thinking that does nothing to improve our understanding of the natural world by bring in the god crap as being the answer.

@ Rev Jonathan Campbell - Is that a wind up post? If that comment reflects real sentiments than man I'm am shocked and horrified. There is no such thing as Satan or God, the concepts are literary devices from peasant science fiction stories. Views such as that are anti-social and frankly ridiculous.

All magical practices from Voodoo to Roman Catholicism are primitive acts rooted in superstitious nonsense. Dead bodies don't resurrect and sacrificing a chicken won't bring good luck.

Perhaps you could get caught up with the science of tectonic plates:

In our Time, Melvyn Bragg, Podcast, Plate Tectonics:
"Plate tectonics, the idea that the earth’s surface moved on a carpet of molten magma, constituted a genuine scientific revolution in geology. It explained why mountains appeared and why earth quakes occurred"

/programmes/b008q0sp

Belief in magical reasons for natural or man made disasters is completely delusional.

@ logica_sine_vanitate There is a scientific, logical explanation for everything. Scientists to date may not have found evidence but continue to explore and literally every day new fantastic insights are revealed.

Dear Rev Jonathan,

Oh dear... I fear you're about to feel the wrath of various post-ers if a previous thread is anything to go by!

#8 Told you, Rev Jonathan!

Peter #6 - please don't fall out with me because Rev Jonathan is in league with Rev Pat!

Is it not possible to have a robust and compassionate Apostle Creed Christian faith which on the one hand queries the 'science-is-god-and-what-primitive-non-believers-you-are' of LucyQ yet distances itself from the Revs?

Is it so incompatible (and offensive!) that I can both 'fold my hands' and still dip them into my wallet - or use them to tend the wounds of the suffering - or even to 'use' them to study plate tectonics? Is there no room for multi-tasking?

#7 - LucyQ -

"There is no such thing as Satan or God, the concepts are literary devices from peasant science fiction stories. Views such as that are anti-social and frankly ridiculous."

Amazing - we have someone here who knows absolutely everything about the entirety of reality. Quick, put LucyQ on the 9:00 o'clock news!

"There is a scientific, logical explanation for everything. Scientists to date may not have found evidence but continue to explore and literally every day new fantastic insights are revealed."

Aha! How cunning of you to slip in the word "logical".

I agree that there is "ultimately" a "logical" explanation for everything, but, LucyQ, logic can operate on different presuppositions. The word "scientific" is not synonymous with "logical". Science deals with empirical data, which then has to be interpreted according to various hypotheses, which are themselves formulated according to philosophical presuppositions.

I know this is all very difficult for you naturalists to understand, because you and your buddies seem to think that the truth of your philosophy is a foregone conclusion. Perhaps an education in the study of ideas might be of help to you, and then you can come back and make a sensible comment (oh, sorry, I forgot, you don't need an education since you "know everything" already!)

#6 - PK -

"It is far better not to promote a mode of thinking that does nothing to improve our understanding of the natural world by bring in the god crap as being the answer."

Can I take it that the word which appears fifth from the end of your comment is now small enough to pass through the moderators' sieve (or was this just an oversight)?

If that is the case, then I wouldn't mind using the word myself occasionally to describe a few things to which I also take strong exception.

In fact, there are certain explanations of reality which I regard as the intellectual equivalent of natural waste product, and some of these views have appeared with predictable regularity on this blog. Can you guess what they are, I wonder?

Jonathan, I write as a Presbyterian (and just so you're in the picture I'd use the labels Evangelical and Reformed if I was forced to)

You're going to encourage the congregation to give to 'Protestant missionary organisations'?

Yes, that's all we need, conditional mercy.

Perhaps, given all the other biblical references you noted, you might consider preaching a sermon on the first 8 verses of Luke 13.

And to think I almost let fly at Lucy.

Perhaps an education in the study of ideas might be of help to you, and then you can come back and make a sensible comment (oh, sorry, I forgot, you don't need an education since you "know everything" already!).

Pot, kettle etc.

Well is Haiti not majority Roman Catholic??? Maybe if the Pope were to sell just one of his paintings or statues that adorn the vatican there would be enough money for Haiti to build up a successful economy and get protection against natural disaster, we as Protestants should be focused on helping those people and spreading the gospel and if we donate to roman catholic missionaries in Haiti we will be doing nothing but spreading darkness...it makes sense to donate to protestant missionaries if we truly want to help these people.

Look at you all bickering over who has the best Christian proselyting handbook. Surely if you are motivated to help those who are suffering then make a donation to Doctors Without Borders or the Red Cross.

Competent, educated Haitians should be supported as they rebuild what is lost.

Rev Jonathan Campbell, so I take it you don't agree with Rev Pat Robertson referenced in a prior post. Pastorphilip hasn't weighed in on this yet so I don't know which side he is on. So many Reverands, so many different opinions from them. How is one to decide which one is right when each one claims to have the exclusive truth and each one proves it by a quote from the bible? If I donate money to Hatians victims, how do I know I won't be contributing to the devil's work and wind up in eternal hell and damnation for it? It seems to me that's whay Rev Robertson is saying. What is your opinion of him?

LucyQ - you still don't get it - pot, kettle... you're as bad as rev J and CC - "My relief agency is better than yours, nah nah nah nah nah"

On the one hand, the arrogant presumption of science-can-sort-out-the-world - and on the other, the arrogant presumption of interpreting the actions of the Almighty.

And why, Lucy Q, should only "competent, educated Haitians" be supported? Is this anything to do with survival of the fittest? It would make sense from a Darwinian-scientific world-view I suppose.

"Sitting on a sofa on a Sunday afternoon
Going to the candidates debate
Laugh about it, shout about it
When you've got to choose
Ev'ry way you look at it, you lose

Where have you gone, Joe DiMaggio
A nation turns its lonely eyes to you (Woo, woo, woo)
What's that you say, Mrs. Robinson
Joltin' Joe has left and gone away
(Hey, hey, hey...hey, hey, hey)

ammm...excuse me but i haven't tried to interpret the actions of the Lord i was merely commenting that it is hypocritical to say that God is all powerful and in control of everything and then when something bad happens say no that wasnt God it was a natural disaster...

Disgusting, quite disgusting.

Lucy Goosey;

"sacrificing a chicken won't bring good luck."

How do you know, have you ever tried it? Don't knock it until you've tried it. I knew a guy who sacrificed a chicken and three days later he won $5000 in the lottery. Coincidence? Can you be sure.

The more I read here, the more I understand why they had a religious war there for 400 years. Good thing for religion though, without that what would they have fought over, who's got the luckiest chickens?

Giving through Oxfam or DEC is your best bet here. Organisations like Christian Aid (which are part of the DEC) are not proselytising organisations, and I have no problem with them being involved in the aid effort. This requires multiple agencies, and the key is to get the right people with the right skills and the right resources into the right place.

It is also for this reason that people should NOT give to other fly-by-night church operations in the thought that they are giving to the people of Haiti. Even if these groups are well motivated, their logistics and organisational apparatus are likely to be poor; much of the money gets wasted without ever reaching the front line.

There is a scientific explanation for earthquakes, not a supernatural one. If people find that praying helps them to DO something about a real problem, that's fine. The placebo effect can be powerful in humans. But if it is a SUBSTITUTE for doing something (as it very very often is) then it is actively harmful. Don't just pray there - DO something.

mccamley

I am appalled at the comments by my fellow 'Protestants'. Apologies on their behalf.


Heliopolitan

"Don't just pray there - DO something." Quite right. I am ashamed by some of the comments here.



I doubt very much anyone on here would be asking the religious views of the ambulance driver should one need to pay them a visit.

Rev. Campbell

1) God's judgement or Satan's mayhem? There are many factors in life which we find difficult to explain. In some cases clergy will land the blame at the door of the Devil. Other clergy, because of their theology, will bring God into the scenario and say that He allowed the event to take place. Are clergymen confused? I don't think so! Rather, when factors are placed before people, quite often they allow pre-conceived ideas to influence their opinion.

As a "theological conservative" person, I believe it is foolish to weigh into the debate and place blame at the door of Deity or demon at a time when so many people are hurting. Save that conversation for the theological lecture theatre or seminary classroom. Rather, Christians should pray for the surviving victims and provide support to those attempting to bring assistance to the situation. This should be the focus of our mission instead of portioning blame! We ought to demonstrate the chief motivating factor behind Christianity ... love.

2) I am sure suffering Hatians will take help from any missionary organization, aid agency or outside government regardless of religious pursuasion. As a committed evangelical, I fully appreciate and support the need for evangelical organisations to be involved in social witness. The Rev. John Wesley said ... "There is no holiness without soicial holiness." Rather, than say you will encourage your congregation to give to protestant missionary societies, would it not be better saying by saying "make sure the organizations you support are morally, ethically and fiscally responsible." Your comments would then be seen as less inflamatory and less offensive.

I don’t think the Haitian people will care where their help comes from as long as they are getting help, and it doesn’t matter to what charity that you give your money to as long as it is helping in the crisis, the bottom line being, HELP! I don’t think the Haitians will care if their help comes from a priest, a Levite, or a Samaritan. The Haitians will not care if the help comes from a Presbyterian, Roman Catholic or an Independent Methodist.

I wasn't talking about help and neither was rev. campbell...we were refering to mission work, aid is different. But when some people get the chance to beat the prods with a big metaphorical stick its away they go...its like if anyone else has a different opinion we should be shouted down and blackened

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

ChristianCalvinist

Sorry, but that 'defence' in post 26 won't do.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

#27

I think I've been pulled up for advocating violence.

It was a metaphorical big stick, not a real one!!!

My point was that what is being expressed by 'prods' on this thread besmirches the name 'protestant' and is far removed from any kind of 'protestantism' I am part of. You bring the metaphorical big stick crashing down on your own heads.

To paraphrase Luther re. Zwingi: "Those who live by the metaphorical big stick get wholloped by the metaphorcal big stick."

ok well you guys can support the Roman Catholic church if you want, if you want ot support the antichrist in Rome thats up to you....as for me i'll give my money to the medical aid groups and the protestant missionaries

"as for me i'll give my money to the medical aid groups and the protestant missionaries"

...but what if *they* give aid to Roman Catholics... and those Roman Catholics survive... and then go on to build their destroyed cathedral... and, oh dear... the 'antichrist' turns up to celebrate the inaugural mass...

we should show mercy and compassion to all so someones religion doesnt determine if they should get aid or not...everyone should! But i'm not going to line Rome's pockets

You know, ChristianCalvinist,

If someone wrote, "we should show mercy and compassion to all', and then put a full stop, I suspect they'd get agreement from everyone on this blog; and that would be quite something.

What is it with you people? We have a humanitarian crisis on our hands in Haiti and you use it to air your points of view. How selfish is that! Let's just show some kindness to fellow human beings in desperate need.

Yvonne, while I understand what you are saying and why you might want to say it, your comment is quite misplaced. The primary purpose of this blog is the exchange of ideas and opinions - unfettered debate is its daily occupation. Those who continue, even in the face of disaster, to pursue their regular activities and concerns are exhibiting one part of a healthy human reaction to suffering.

An emapthetic response to need is natural but for empathy to work, to be efficient rather than debilitating, it needs a context of personal resilience. Most of us can give the people of Haiti the maximum help possible for us in a matter of minutes with a telephone and credit card; if we have done that then it is in no sense selfish to continue with life as normal and, if that includes exchanging ideas on blogs like this, then that is a good thing to do.

What the comments say is, of-course, another matter and to that I hope to return.
ÌýÌý

I think as is invariably the case, the American taxpayer and private donor will foot the lion's share of the cost for the rescue in the current crisis. Even Â鶹Éç acknowledged yesterday that only America has the resources to organize and manage the kind of monumental humanitarian effort it will take to prevent even far more people from dying. That is not to say other governments, NGOs, and private donors won't play a very significant role in contributing to this purpose. Much aid is coming from many countries including private donors for once.

I think the question for the future is what happens afterwards to this shattered country. It is the poorest country in the Western Hemisphere. You can't really talk about rebuilding it, there wasn't much built their in the first place. Most of it was a bunch of shantytowns that barely survived in the past. I'm afraid that unless Hatians overcome their prior xenophobia, accept foreign investment, some semblance of real democratic rule and reform, impose law and order, it will become a failed state, a Somalia of the Western Hemisphere. That is not an acceptable security threat so close to the shores of the United States. Change will have to come to Haiti even if it must be imposed from the outside. Perhaps the experience of the earthquake and Hatian dependence on the rest of the world will help the Hatians see that they must adjust their thinking and accept it.

Agreed. Haitians need to frame a healthy economy. Sending food aid is not going to solve the long term problems of self sufficiency. The failures of lack of good government, freedom from corruption coupled with a strong mandate to foster a literate population is the basis of every competent society.

Haiti shares and island space with Dominican Republic yet those two nations are no where near equivalent in terms of social progress. It is Haitians themselves that must assume control, management and development of the country. Suggesting that white westerners should oversee establishing a nation is paternalistic and racist.

DR has a thriving tourism industry that helps sustain it yet Haiti doesn't and that contributes to the misery.

Our GG is a Haitian immigrant to Canada. She is brilliant and Haiti needs more people like Michaëlle Jean:


Ethics question - are all nations viable?

Lucy Goosey;

"Haiti shares and island space with Dominican Republic yet those two nations are no where near equivalent in terms of social progress."

I couldn't have said it any better myself. Remind you of two other nations that share an island?

39. At 04:49am on 18 Jan 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:

"Remind you of two other nations that share an island?"

Yes but i'd prefer to just leave Rathlin Island out of this conversation... :)

CC, is that what you call a nation on the Emerald Isle, "Ratland?" Hmmm, you'd know better than I would. But which one is it? The one where the entire population seemed to support a civil war euphemistically called "the troubles" in which the perpetual murder of those of its citizens who were of a different political and religious stripe was conconed and where even today persecution of the handfull of foreigners, Roumanians for example is an accepted fact? Or the one which looked with indifference for generations at systematic physical, mental, and sexual abuse of children by those who were the real governing power, a thinly veiled theocracy until they couldn't pretend it didn't exist anymore. Different but is either one better than the other? And here there is a myth that there are no snakes on that island. Someone must have forgotten that some snakes walk on two feet.

The one where the entire population seemed to support a civil war euphemistically called "the troubles" in which the perpetual murder of those of its citizens who were of a different political and religious stripe was conconed and where even today persecution of the handfull of foreigners, Roumanians for example is an accepted fact?

1. The Romanians did not leave because of persecution, they left because their government money was to be stopped....they are now back in Belfast.

2. We on the Protestant side did not an armed campaign unlike republicans.

3. What happens on Rathlin Island stays on Rathlin Island...

4. Yes one is better than the other...but which one? lol

On the subject of mixing up aid relief with preaching a world view, a US group has just outdone all bits of sniping by other believers and atheists combined. They decided that the thing that Haiti really needs right now is digital bibles:

LucyQ

An excellent question about the viability of nations. Maybe we can blame Woodrow Wilson on the mess.But what does it mean to be a nation? When do people gain the right to self-determination?
The other question that needs addressed - what culpability has the US in Haiti's problems? It more than tolerated Papa and Baby Doc?

GV

William:

I am glad and thankful that the Churches are appealing for the people in Haiti and, offering the country support in their time of need.

-Dennis Junior-