Mims Davies MP: “My dad was disabled for twenty-five years”
Mims Davies knows first-hand about disability, having cared for her dad. How is she faring as Minister for Disabled People, Health and Work?
Mims Davies knows first-hand about disability having been a carer for her dad after he sustained a head injury. But how is the Minster for Disabled people, Health and Work faring in the job?
In an extended interview, Emma Tracey quizzes her on a variety of topics including the government's decision to make people on a modest income pay back money for over-claiming Carer's Allowance.
The minister responds to claims by a United Nations committee that the UK is failing in its duty to give disabled people dignity in life and work.
Plus it’s a year since the British Sign Language (BSL) Advisory Board first met to advise the government on key issues impacting BSL users in the deaf community. What has it achieved so far?
Presenter Emma Tracey
The episode was made by Alex Collins, Daniel Gordon and Drew Hyndman
Recorded and mixed by Dave O’Neill
The editors were Damon Rose and Alex Lewis
EPISODE 104 MIMS DAVIES TRANSCRIPT
09th May 2024
bbc.co.uk/accessall
Access All – episode 104
Presented by Emma Tracey
EMMA- You’ve already had one episode of Access All this week with Liz Carr. This is our second interview special of the week, and this time it is with the Minister for Disabled People, Health and Work, Mims Davies. And she’ll be joined by Craig Crowley who’s from the British Sign Language Advisory Board that’s been set up for a year now, and we’re going to talk about that. But to be honest, there have been loads of disability stories in the news lately, big ones, and we’re going to talk about those too, so let’s just get on with the show.
MUSIC- Theme music.
EMMA- Hello, this is Access All, the disability and mental health podcast from 鶹 News. I’m Emma Tracey, and in your second episode of Access All this week we are speaking to Minister for Disabled People, Health and Work, Mims Davies, and the co-chair of the British Sign Language Advisory Board, Craig Crowley. That was set up a year ago, Craig is the co-chair and he’ll be speaking to us through a British Sign Language interpreter. Please subscribe to us on 鶹 Sounds or wherever you get your podcasts. And you can contact us with any feedback on this interview or about anything else on accessall@bbc.co.uk.
It’s been exactly a year since the government created a BSL, British Sign Language Advisory Board to better understand the lived experience of deaf people. Mims Davies, the Minister for Disability, Health and Work has decided to come on to our podcast, Access All, to talk to us about the board and how it’s been going. And joining Mims Davies today is Craig Crowley, who’s the CEO of Action Deafness and the co-chair of the advisory board. Hello both.
MIMS- Good morning, Emma. Hello, Craig.
CRAIG- Hello, good morning.
EMMA- Good morning, you’re so welcome. It’s really nice to have you with us, Minister. I think Minister would we be fair to say the job title that disabled people deserve, rather than Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Mims Davies?
MIMS- Well, both are ministers, and I have the same power with both. But I’m not going to complain about being the Minister of State for Disabled People, Health and Work. I’m delighted to do the role. It’s the most humbling and brilliant role I could ever hope for.
EMMA- Well, more about that maybe later. But let’s talk about the BSL Advisory Board. Mims, why did the government set up this board?
MIMS- It’s been one year since this board first began advising government on key issues when it comes to those impacting BSL users in the deaf community. And this board has been appointed for three years to look at a programme of work to address the matters that deaf people feel are barriers that need to be challenged, and also to bring forward opportunities. So, what you’ve seen is them helping with the development of the new BSL GCSE; giving really clear and important insights into the barriers that deaf athletes have when it comes to competing; and also looking at priority areas for disabled people more widely, but really for deaf people the issue also is around health and social care so they’ve been looking at that; education and wider government communication. So, they’ve been very busy in this first year, and I’m delighted all the team have really delivered on a big focus for government, which frankly needed to happen.
EMMA- This one’s directed at Craig: there were 17 of you on the board, what was the experience like for you and what do you want the government to understand?
CRAIG- Well, it’s a real honour for me to be the co-chair of this committee and be part of the board. It’s really important because it’s helping the government to understand the issues and we’re sharing lots of information with them, issues that really affect the deaf community. The experience so far I have to say the board itself is a collection of very different people, there are 17 of us altogether, and we are able to advise the government, give them information and address issues that can really drive forward positive change.
EMMA- And here on Access All, 鶹’s disability and mental health podcast, we have created some BSL videos on the 鶹 Sounds YouTube channel. And there are six videos and they’re highlights of some of our best interviews this year. Craig, I just wondered, and Mims, around the advisory board have you guys looked at BSL in unusual or different types of media, not just TV, you know, podcasts and things like that that wouldn’t necessarily be signed? Have you kind of looked into better access to those?
CRAIG- If I could just jump in quickly, that’s one of the many areas that we will be considering as part of the advisory board. Recently we had the National Disability Action Plan and we were advising through that process. We had BSL interpreters in the Number 10 announcement. And that’s one step towards where we want to be. And podcasts will be another step along that road. It’s definitely something we’re exploring.
EMMA- Thank you so much, Craig. And Mims, is that the kind of breadth of things you want the board to be looking at and talking about?
MIMS- Absolutely. The board will be now looking at their next programme of work for the next two years of their tenure, Emma. I think hopefully it’s building on the ground-breaking recognition that BSL has as a language in England, Scotland and Wales. It sits alongside, as Craig said, the 32 practical actions of the Disability Action Plan, which is running across this year. There will be a further update from the board this July. They’ve already had one report; there’ll be another one coming. And that will link into the Disability Action Plan updates as well they will be reporting in the summer.
EMMA- I would imagine that the success of a board like that often depends on the minister and where they are in the set-up of government. And if we can just move on a little bit from BSL because we’ve got you here Mims Davies, I mean your job title was an interesting thing on our podcast, we talked about it a lot. First of all we talked about the gap there was after Tom Pursglove stopped being the Minister for Disabled People. There was a gap, it was the longest in years. And then you were given disability as part of a wider brief with social mobility and other things, and as a Parliamentary Under-Secretary. I mean, was the brief too wide? Was the job title too low? Should you have been immediately a minister?
MIMS- Just to be very clear to people listening, there was a lot of narrative around this and some of it wasn’t quite right, Emma. I’ve been pretty much the longest serving minister in DWP, not far off five years, and one of the reasons that I have got this role is because of my experience of delivering for people in the labour market and in the Department of Work and Pensions. My dad was disabled for over 25 years and my mum worked with young disabled adults, those people transitioning out of education and into young adult life. She was part of the early part of the RDA and she was also part of the early movement of the Special Olympics. So, I actually think I am very much the right person for the job. And just to be clear, once there was an opportunity to make me the Minister of State it has been a mixture over our government of Parliamentary Under-Secretary or Minister of State.
EMMA- Well, it has; it’s mostly been Minister of State though.
MIMS- Yes, and I’m delighted that it has that recognition of course.
EMMA- But then you were given it as part of a wider brief.
MIMS- Well, let me come onto that. But also, if I may, the other point around the role is actually those transitions from education into the wider labour market and wider support are actually really key. And I have a big focus on young people and social mobility and progression for people. And disabled people and those with health conditions, and housing which is part of my wider brief and my knowledge, bringing that all together and having been the Employment Minister I think was really important. I’ll just say, under the Labour government always the disabled minister under the Blair government was a Parliamentary Under-Secretary. So, those people saying from the sidelines this is a demotion it’s not right.
EMMA- Was there a lot of pressure on the government to bring the job back to Minister of State? Because I mean David Clarke, from Paralympics GP, headed up an open letter with quite a lot of organisations, which got quite a lot of media attention, saying that it should be brought back to Minister of State. Was that part of the reason?
MIMS- As soon as it was possible with the government positions, which are set by Cabinet Office and their various rules, it has been. Look, I’m wearing my Paralympics badge. I worked with the Paralympics when I was Sports Minister so I know them well, and I understand why that argument was being made. But to my very strong focus on this is it didn’t matter what level I was or how much I get paid, because ultimately that is what people were pushing for me, me to get the promotion, I was doing the job whatever. And I was delighted to do the job and I would have done it any level. And I think being focused on the rank in government wasn’t helpful because I think disabled people felt that they didn’t have a representative, which wasn’t true. And from day one I’ve been working on the Disability Action Plan, on the work that we have here with Craig and the team there, and the perception that disabled people weren’t understood or being forgotten, and that’s not the case. And I’ve worked very hard to make sure that people don’t feel that.
EMMA- No, I hear you, I hear what you’re saying. So, what’s your relationship like with Prime Minister Rishi Sunak on disability policy? And the reason I ask that question is because on 30th April you reposted a post on X from disability charity Scope, and I’m just going to quote it. It said, ‘Proposals to curb PIP and to change how people are assessed as unfit for work are dangerous’. You reposted that, actually twice. You did repost the consultation as well. But it did lead us to wonder whether you agreed with what’s in this consultation around PIP, which we’ve been talking about a lot on the podcast. And if not, what do you disagree with?
MIMS- So, I was trying to share the message which is on my post that this is a very clear, open consultation for disabled people, those with health conditions and those that have needs to actively feed into the government. For some reason it has shared twice. I was trying to make the comment that I have shared.
EMMA- We all make slips, we all make social media slips in terms of sharing things twice. But you did share it once, so I wonder did you agree with Scope and what they said?
MIMS- No, I don’t agree, which is why I was trying to say this is an open consultation, and I don’t want disabled people and those with health conditions to feel frightened about what is a green paper and a discussion paper, which is exactly about making sure disabled people’s voices are heard and understood – exactly what we’re discussing on the programme. For whatever reason, either a glitch I don’t understand, and other people have had the same where they’ve tried to make a comment on it. So, I really don’t think that’s the story. The story for me is that I don’t want people to not have a say and to over-read this; but to have their voice in this consultation. We’ve talked about it on the podcast today about disabled people getting a voice, and that’s what I was keen to push; not that this is any kind of done deal and that people should be scaremongering.
EMMA- Well, it isn’t a done deal, it definitely isn’t a done deal because the results of the consultation won’t come out and nothing will be able to be done with them until after a General Election. Which has made some disabled people feel that this consultation is more of a gesture to the voting public who agree that benefits are too high, who agree that the wrong people are getting benefits. Is it?
MIMS- So, a few things. I’ve been a minister at DWP for five years, more or less, working on the Kickstart programme to help young people, quite often with undiagnosed health conditions and needs, to progress into work; setting up youth hubs to help people with the biggest barriers into work; and also to support people at their most vulnerable. There is a huge narrative, which is what I was trying to combat in that message, that there is some kind of done deal on this. This is about understanding the needs. And what’s been very clear from the Disability Action Plan or the National Disability Strategy that disabled people want and need to be heard, and that actually a changed labour market, we’ve got more people…
EMMA- But some of them feel like political footballs right now. Some of them feel like they’re pawns in a political game because this consultation has come out so far into an election year.
MIMS- There’s no political game here. I think the reality is, and I was just going on to say, there is a changed labour market: there’s less presenteeism, more flexibility, more AI, more tech, more ways that we can support disabled people to work, thrive and flourish in the way that’s right for them. And part of that is looking at the benefits system, for one reason because actually some of those most vulnerable and those people with the most financial needs and costs need to be understood. But equally are we targeting our support right? We have beaten our disability employment goal, and I’m looking at that right now, things around Disability Confident and other interventions such as Access to Work.
EMMA- Oh my goodness, do you know what, I could talk to you about the disability employment goal and the widening the gap etc. but…
MIMS- Well, watch this space, Emma. Watch this space.
EMMA- But, you know, you always say you’ve widened the gap when actually it’s a bit more complicated than that, isn’t it?
MIMS- Exactly, which is why we’re looking at the next goal.
EMMA- Right, can we go onto Stephen Timms, the Head of the Work and Pensions Committee? He criticised the DWP when all the news came out around carers being allowed to be overpaid their allowance and it not being caught on time, and them being in lots of debt and being asked to pay it back. I mean, five years ago MPs asked the DWP to do some research around how the payment system affected the carers, and that report hasn’t come out yet. You’ve mentioned recently that it will come out soon, but why is it not here? Why have we not seen the results of that? Is there something to hide there?
MIMS- No. it’s being used for policy development on carers, and it’s actually incredibly useful. And our Secretary of State and I have agreed for it to be published, and it will be shortly.
EMMA- When will it be published?
MIMS- Well, the process is the process. It will be I think, in parliamentary speak, “shortly” because this is a very interesting subject for me. I was the co-chair of…
EMMA- Weeks? Months?
MIMS- Emma, I’m trying to answer your questions and it’s really difficult if I can’t finish my sentence. I was co-chair of the all-party group on carers, so I’ve been working with Carers UK since I came in. One of the reasons to be in frontline politics is I came from a family impacted by disablement and caring, respite and everything that comes with it is one of my drivers in politics. So, I’m delighted to be looking at this policy area. And Stephen Timms and I in the select committee and indeed in Westminster Hall debates just recently, I’ve really welcomed the interest in this area. He had a look at this with or the previous committee rather in 2019. He is a minister who was in the department in 2008 as minister looking at benefit change. And it’s been there since the 1970s. And I think it is one of the most challenging policies and support to get right. If you’re not a carer now you will be a carer in the future or you will need to be cared for, so we as a government, we as a community need to get this right. And I do welcome the interest and I’m looking at it forensically.
EMMA- Yeah, we do look forward to seeing that report. There are so many things I want to ask you, because we talked about the UNCRPD, the UN’s disability committee, and that they’ve been looking into what they say are violations of their requirements around about giving disabled people dignity and Access to Work, and the Work Capability Assessment. And there was an evidence session in the summer last year which the government didn’t attend. That didn’t look really that great, did it?
MIMS- It’s not unusual for government ministers not to be there. I was actually, when that session was on, answering questions in the House of Commons, so I couldn’t be in two places at once. But I am disappointed with what they’ve had to say. I will be in New York this summer at their event, all being well, I’ll be part of the Paralympics. But also equally, Emma, you’ve said there’s lots to get on with, and that’s what I’m doing as well, whether it's looking at Disability Confident and how to make that right; the next disability employment goal, delivering on the Disability Action Plan this summer; the first update which we hope to bring forward around accessible playgrounds; the work around costs and other things that disabled people want and need us to be looking at.
EMMA- Like extra costs?
MIMS- Yeah. So, there’s a big body of work that we’re doing. But I fundamentally feel disappointed with that report. Again, it seems to fit this narrative that the government is, you know, not keen to understand disabled people; which I fundamentally disagree with. That’s why I’m in this job, absolutely all in to make things better and make those relationships better, and disabled people and those with health conditions to feel supported. One other key area is so many employers want to support and help people in the labour market, perhaps if it’s an acquired condition as well, and I’m really working strongly with employers to stop just talking about that narrative, but deliver on that narrative and give them the confidence to do that. And I think that’s really exciting when it comes to this labour market.
EMMA- So, in three words, will it be something different to Disability Confident? Because it feels like Disability Confident is on the way out?
MIMS- No, no. Disability Confident we’ve just done some further updates on management guidance. But for me I think you need to be looking at the whole lens when it comes to disability employment, whether it’s around the goal, around Disability Confident, around Access to Work. This needs to work for disabled people, employers, and that’s what I’m focused on.
EMMA- Disabled people would say all those three things need changes. We’re talking to Liz Carr, disabled actor, about her documentary on assisted dying or assisted suicide, which is what she would call it. And obviously it’s been in the news a lot lately, the Prime Minister is saying there would be a free vote on it, so you won’t be whipped, you can vote how you want. Taking your job as Disability Minister and your experience of disability, is it okay to ask what you will be voting or what you will be thinking about when making that vote?
MIMS- I think it’s always important to listen to the debate, as a constituency MP, where there’s any free or conscience debate. But for me I very much feel, and as the Minister for Disabled People, my dad often felt a burden and felt worried about the future, I’m very mindful that’s how many disabled people and disabled organisations will feel. So, for me if this comes forward, and I think the opposition have said that if they come forward they would bring it forward, this is something that we’ve seen recently in Westminster Hall, I don’t think we should be rushing into this. We’ve already seen a private members bill which was too narrow and wasn’t right. We need to have all voices. And I think Liz’s documentary is very welcome.
Again, one of my key points as Minister for Disabled People Health and Work at DWP is to support disabled people to feel supported, understood and valued, and they shouldn’t be worried about this, and their voices and those representing them and their families need to be heard. This is about a very wide-ranging debate; it needs to be a grown-up and adult debate. But for me, huge caveats and support is needed to be given should any law change. And I think we have to be very open-minded, anybody who is voting for that.
EMMA- So, just to be really clear, will you be voting for or against the current bill that’s being brought through?
MIMS- I haven’t seen the details of current bill. I’ve voted against it before. I’ve given you the background about my dad and how I feel about this. I understand Esther Rantzen and other people have different views. But for me, at the moment if anybody was voting for it you’d have to have huge caveats, it would have to be very well understood, and I think we’re miles away from that. I think it’s important to have the debate, but for me, disabled people and those with health conditions and wellbeing needs have to be listened and understood. And we’re miles away, as far as I can see, from making any kind of change to the law.
EMMA- Thanks to Mims Davies, Minister for Disabled People, Health and Work, and to Craig Crowley from the BSL Advisory Board. And we have our own BSL videos on the 鶹 Sounds YouTube channel. There are six of them and they are highlights from some of our favourite interviews this year so far. Please do take a look.
We have had some feedback about last week’s episode about exam preparations. We had it from someone who’s doing their GCSEs at the moment, it’s Ruth, and she says, ‘I have dyslexia, which means it takes me longer to process information. And the stress of exams can cause panic attacks. Because of this I get 25% extra time, 15 minutes worth of rest breaks, and software which reads me the exams through headphones – that’s my favourite line. These arrangements do not give me an advantage over the neurotypical – so I think she means people who are not neurodivergent – but they allow me to perform at my best. Thank you for talking about it’. Well, thank you for emailing us, Ruth, we really, really appreciate it.
That’s it for this week. Thanks for listening. Goodbye.
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