麻豆社

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13th February 2024

bbc.co.uk/accessall

Access All 鈥� episode 97

Presented by Emma Tracey

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EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Hello Jem and Victoria. You鈥檙e going to be with me later talking about underwear. But now Jem has just told me that in her bag she鈥檚 got something that I might like to see.

JEM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I have got something that I have made, some DIY [laughs], because it鈥檚 so difficult to get your own adaptive clothing I have to resort to making it myself. Now, this is what I call the wrap and roll. And what I鈥檝e got in front of me is my old black duffel coat from 2008, I cut off the sleeves.

VICTORIA-听听听听 Nice.

JEM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I sewed them back up 鈥� well actually my neighbour did 鈥� and then I can wrap it around my legs like this, and now you鈥檝e got the wrap and roll that keeps my legs dry and warm and comfortable when I go out. But what is really great about this is it鈥檚 so easy to get on and so easy to get off. So, from just transferring into the car just whip it off, chuck it in the car, and off I go.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Is that all? Have you got anything else in your bag for me?

JEM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 A banana? [Laughter]

MUSIC-听听听听听听听听听听 Theme music.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Hello, it鈥檚 me, it鈥檚 Emma Tracey, your friendly Access All presenter, here to talk all things disability and mental health. Because apparently I鈥檓 slightly qualified for this, well at least for some of it, because I do have a special registration card in my wallet that says that I鈥檓 severely sight impaired. So, there you go.

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Anyway, coming up on this episode: should you be entitled to a short break if you can pay for it with savings you鈥檝e made from your Direct Payments? Nathan thinks so, and he鈥檒l be telling me all about that. And there鈥檚 so much going on in the world of accessible fashion that we have invited not one, but two fashionistas into the studio. Woo-hoo. Sound fun? If so you can subscribe to us on 麻豆社 Sounds. And if you鈥檝e caught us on 5 Live, hello, you can hit that subscribe button too, you know, so that you鈥檒l never miss an episode. Right, on with the show.

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I have a question for everybody now: is it your human right to go on holiday? Nathan Lee Davies thinks so. He鈥檚 from Wrexham in Wales, and he鈥檇 been saving some of his social care money, so that鈥檚 the money he鈥檚 given by the council to live independently, and he鈥檚 been saving it for his first holiday in 24 years. Nathan has Friedrich鈥檚 ataxia and that affects his coordination and his balance and his speech, and he has a limited life expectancy. So, he's keen to be in the here and now and do what he can. The council says that the money cannot be spent for flights and accommodation for the two PAs that Nathan would need to bring with him on holiday. They鈥檝e also clawed back quite a lot of the money that he had saved for the holiday as well. Nathan is with us, and also Nathan鈥檚 friend, Chris. Hi Nathan, hi Chris.

NATHAN-听听听听听听 Hi there, Emma.

CHRIS-听听听听听听听听听听听 Hi, Emma.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Tell me about the holiday that you wanted to go on. Where were you wanting to go and when?

NATHAN-听听听听听听 Well, first of all I would say that I don鈥檛 like to call it a holiday as such. It鈥檚 more of a short break, because a holiday sort of suggests that I鈥檇 be going on a jolly just because I want to. But really it鈥檚 a short break to have a bit of respite from the mundane reality of everyday life. I鈥檝e gone through drama of divorce and I鈥檝e been in and out of hospital with kidney stones; and I just planned a trip to Florida to help my mental and physical wellbeing needs that I think I deserve.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 You were going with a specialist travel company, so you were going to get accessible places to stay, and you were going to go to Florida for six days.

NATHAN-听听听听听听 Yeah.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 And how much would you have needed to save for that and how much would you needed to have spent on that?

NATHAN-听听听听听听 Well, it was 拢3,500 when I was first given the original quote. But because the council wouldn鈥檛 let me book it then when I was finally in a position to make the booking the costs had obviously risen, so now it鈥檚 拢3,800.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 And that money鈥檚 just for you to go on holiday?

NATHAN-听听听听听听 No, that included the PAs. I have never wanted my holiday to be paid for.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 So, you鈥檙e paying for your part of the holiday out of your own money?

NATHAN-听听听听听听 Yeah.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Okay.

NATHAN-听听听听听听 But what I do object to is having to pay for the people that will be working to support me.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 You鈥檝e been told that you have to pay for their flights and accommodation. How have you managed to save so much of your direct payments up?

NATHAN-听听听听听听 It鈥檚 because of a failing with the care support plan, the care support plan should be through a series of wellbeing outcomes that ways in which I can spend my money maybe on trips to the cinema or things to help me engage in the local community. But it features absolutely zero wellbeing outcomes and it just feels like I鈥檝e been short-changed by Wrexham Council.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Chris, your Nathan鈥檚 friend. Chris is going to give you a hand, isn鈥檛 he, to help you tell the story.

CHRIS-听听听听听听听听听听听 The original care and support plan had three outcomes, and the third outcome was to use a hoist to carry Nathan out of his bed and put him onto his wheelchair. That was an outcome!

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 So, that should be a basic need instead of an outcome you think?

CHRIS-听听听听听听听听听听听 Exactly.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 The council has clawed back some of the money, haven鈥檛 they, Chris? You鈥檝e seen all this happening. What did the council do?

CHRIS-听听听听听听听听听听听 I鈥檝e seen it with Nathan. And to be fair to Nathan, what has actually happened is you鈥檇 accumulated, as you say, this money. But that鈥檚 over a number of years, if you remember. We鈥檝e also had COVID so it can take over a long time for it to slowly accumulate. But Nathan hasn鈥檛 then spent it unwisely. He鈥檚 reasonably saved it. And he does also provide quarterly accounts to the council, so they didn鈥檛 have a problem and they knew basically what money Nathan had.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 So, what did the council do? They took an interest in the money and they took it back in an interesting way, didn鈥檛 they?

CHRIS-听听听听听听听听听听听 Well, they have been sending Nathan letters asking for the money back. And they warned him if he didn鈥檛 pay the money back they would simply take the money in the months of October, November and 鈥� Happy Christmas 鈥� December. That he knew the money would restart in January, and he was forced obviously to live on what had been saved.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Nathan, what are you going to do now? Are you still going to get to go on holiday?

NATHAN-听听听听听听 Well, yeah I will have to ask my mum to pay. I just think it鈥檚 totally unfair to put me in this position where I鈥檓 having to ask my 75 year-old mother for some financial support.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 I spoke to lawyer, Anne-Marie Irwin who specialises in human rights, including disability rights, and I started by asking her where the law stands on the level of underspend that Nathan had.

ANNE-MARIE-听 A person should have flexibility about how they spend that money to meet their needs. And so in Nathan鈥檚 case it seems that that鈥檚 what he鈥檚 done, and he鈥檚 chosen to meet his needs in this particular way.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Wrexham Borough Council have clawed back quite a lot of the underspend. And obviously Nathan鈥檚 not particularly pleased about that because he wanted to go on holiday every year for the rest of his probably short life left. Could this end up in court?

ANNE-MARIE-听 Potentially. There was a similar case in 2021 where Suffolk County Council unsuccessfully argued in a judicial review in a High Court that it wasn鈥檛 required any longer to meet the cost of supported holidays for two disabled brothers; and it had been doing that for several years prior to that. And in that case the Court of Appeal found that the local authority was ignoring a key element of the brothers鈥� needs and namely the ability to fund the means to access and take part in holidays. And so it really comes back to what is the assessment and care plan saying: does the person have a need in that area? And one of the things the local authority should be looking at is the need for somebody to engage in leisure activities, so that could of course include a holiday. The local authority is permitted to stop direct payments and to request a repayment, but only in circumstances where the person hasn鈥檛 been spending direct payments to meet the need. So, again it comes back to what is this person鈥檚 need, and allowing the person flexibility over how they choose to spend the money to meet the need.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 The council say they will pay for the carer or the PA鈥檚 wages while Nathan鈥檚 on holiday in Florida, but not the flights and accommodation. And they鈥檝e also said they鈥檒l help him if he wants to source the PAs in Florida for his six-day holiday but they won鈥檛 pay flights and accommodation. So, that potentially could be argued not meeting the full need?

ANNE-MARIE-听 On the face of it it seems to me that could be argued to be irrational, and public authorities have a duty to act rationally. Because how do Nathan鈥檚 needs get met once he鈥檚 out there if his carers can鈥檛 actually get out there to support him? I don鈥檛 know about what鈥檚 been proposed in terms of carers out in Florida, but presumably they will be carers who have no knowledge of Nathan, haven鈥檛 been able to meet his needs previously, haven鈥檛 met him. And of course that would have an impact on how his needs are met, and I鈥檓 sure Nathan wants carers who are familiar with him and care for him day to day.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 We invited Wrexham County Borough Council on but they declined. However, they did tell us this:

COUNCIL-听听听听听 The Council supports use of Direct Payments to meet the core assess needs of individuals. If an individual chooses not to use their social care funding on meeting their assessed needs then the policy in terms of clawback is clear that surplus funds are to be returned to the Council. All individual鈥檚 assessed needs are designed to support them to have their care needs met alongside social activities within the authority鈥檚 overall resources social activities. Mr Davies has confirmed that he has not engaged in the social activities that he receives Direct Payment funding for, which is a choice that he has every right to make.听听

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 And specifically in regards to Nathan鈥檚 Florida trip they said:

COUNCIL-听听听听听 The Council is willing to fund Mr Davies鈥� care whilst he is on holiday. He has also been offered options around sourcing care and support whilst in Florida.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Thank you so much to Nathan Lee Davies and to Chris as well for joining us.

CHRIS-听听听听听听听听听听听 Thank you.

NATHAN-听听听听听听 Take care.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 And thanks also to John Pring from the Disability News Service who highlighted this story. So, are holidays crucial for living a good, rounded, fulfilling life? Let us know. We鈥檙e 麻豆社 Access All on X, formerly known as Twitter. And it鈥檚 accessall@bbc.co.uk on the email.

[Clip]

CLAUDIA-听听听听听 You are the last surviving players on The Traitors.

MOLLY-听听听听听听听听听 I鈥檝e kind of spent most of my life since I was 11 quite unwell. I kind of wanted to advocate for people with limb difference and a stoma. If I looked at myself three years ago I couldn鈥檛 even leave the house at points, so to now be here, like, running around with you guys is kind of crazy.

MALE-听听听听听听听听听听听听 With total strangers.

MOLLY-听听听听听听听听听 Yeah [laughs].

[End of clip]

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Gosh, Molly from The Traitors was great a couple of weeks ago, wasn鈥檛 she? An absolute standout moment for me was when she started talking about her stoma. Now, a stoma is when you get your colon removed and the waste needs to go somewhere, so a bit of your intestine is popped outside of your body and that鈥檚 where a bag goes to collect the waste. So, here鈥檚 a clip of Molly talking about her stoma, which she calls Sid by the way:

[Clip]

MOLLY-听听听听听听听听听 He鈥檚 pretty well-behaved. Like, I can鈥檛 lie. Touch wood he鈥檚 been great. I change my bag kind of every three to four days, and I just empty it throughout the day normally when I go to the loo. And yeah, he doesn鈥檛 cause me many problems.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 You鈥檙e quite proud of Sid.

MOLLY-听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, I鈥檓 very proud of Sid. He鈥檚 helped me in many ways.

[End of clip]

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 We asked you on X if you name your stoma or other access stuff. And listeners, you did not disappoint. Paul鈥檚 stoma came into being, or was born as he says, which I think it pretty cute, when his large bowel was removed due to cancer. And he鈥檚 actually on TikTok now, he鈥檚 so excited about it, with his stoma. And the stoma is called Shrimp. And Paul took the time to send us a voice note, woo-hoo, about his stoma Shrimp, and about the bag he hangs on it to collect the waste:

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听听听 After chemotherapy, radiotherapy treatments I went into hospital on 28th November 2022 where I had my large bowel removed, and Shrimp the stoma was born. I struggled to come to terms with cancer and indeed the operation. I considered not having the surgery, but after seeking counselling I decided to not only embrace my stoma but to use my experiences to help others. So, I joined TikTok as Shrimp the Stoma and Me, and together we show there鈥檚 life after cancer, and there鈥檚 a life worth living with a stoma. Shrimp not only saved my life, he gives me life. My bag isn鈥檛 a bag for life, it鈥檚 a bag for living.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Oh Paul, that is really, really lovely and a really great way to talk about a massive change in your life. I really, really love that. Sticking with giving stuff a name here鈥檚 Mandy:

MANDY-听听听听听听听听 Hi, I use a reclining wheelchair and it鈥檚 called the Mand Wagon. It was named by my friend Jennifer.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Now, Soup of the Day sent us a post on X about their crutches, which they call Thelma and Louise. I love this. Soup says, 鈥淚鈥檓 hoping one day that I can throw them both over a cliff. But it鈥檚 been five years now so it might be a lifelong friendship鈥�. Oh, so well thought through. Thelma and Louise, amazing film about friendship where they鈥�I鈥檓 not going to give you a spoiler, but there鈥檚 a clip involved. Anyway, really well thought through and it makes me want to watch that film again.

I absolutely love getting your messages. We want to hear you on Access All, we want to read your stuff, so if you name your access kit, your cane, your hearing aid, your walking frame, your prosthetic limb, we want to hear what it鈥檚 called and why and who named it as well. I like that. But if you鈥檙e not into naming your stuff 鈥� and I鈥檓 actually not, none of my canes have ever had names 鈥� I want to hear from you as well, my kindred spirits. Send me a voice note on 0330 123 9480. And if you can pop the word Access before your message then in the long list of 麻豆社 messages we will know that this one is for our Access All podcast. And if you don鈥檛 fancy sending a voice note do email us accessall@bbc.co.uk. And we鈥檙e on X @麻豆社AccessAll.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 High street staple, Primark, have unleashed a new range of adaptive underwear. There are four pieces in the range, and it鈥檚 Primark鈥檚 first of this kind. The pieces have magnetic closures and soft, comfy fabric. The promotional campaign for this has been getting an awful lot of attention online. But does the fashion industry still have a long way to go to make adaptive clothing ready to wear and easily available in the shops? With me we鈥檝e got Victoria Jenkins, the head honcho at Unhidden clothing, and you have designed clothing for Lucy and Yak, and you鈥檝e even had your own range in London Fashion Week last year. And Jem Hubbard is an influencer 鈥� would we say?

JEM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Influencer, content creator.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Content creator. You鈥檙e known as WheelsNoHeels online, and lots of our listeners will have come across you reviewing various aspects of being a wheelchair user in the world. So, let鈥檚 go back to the adaptive underwear now and let鈥檚 start with you, Victoria. What was your initial reaction to Primark鈥檚 campaign and to the range itself?

VICTORIA-听听听听听听 The initial reaction was just finally, you know. The representation alone was wonderful. But I think it really marks a shift in high street retailers at least starting, albeit it slowly, but starting to consider and include adaptive options.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 What we actually haven鈥檛 explained is what adaptive clothing is, Victoria.

VICTORIA-听听听听听听 For me I try and switch between adaptive and universal, because universal is what we should be aiming for, but there is a need for adaptive. So, adaptive is any kind of garment or clothing that is adapted to a specific disability. In some cases that might mean seated knickers or something really specific for a particular concern with dexterity issues or鈥�

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Seated knickers?

VICTORIA-听听听听听听 Yeah.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 What鈥檚 the difference between seated knickers and, I don鈥檛 know, ambulatory knickers?

VICTORIA-听听听听听听 So, ideally they would be a bit longer in the back rise, so they would have a different shape to them. And where the seams are positioned would slightly change that back bit, and the front piece would need to be shifted. It all comes down to what condition you鈥檙e trying to choose. Whereas obviously I try and do universal design where I can because that means anyone can wear it; it鈥檚 not only for people with disabilities, it just has things built in for if you need them.

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 But I think also that helps new mums or new parents, or anyone who鈥檚 just broken a leg or someone who鈥檚 just had surgery, but it鈥檚 something they鈥檙e not going to have forever. The need for this is a lot bigger than just this community.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 But Jem, the issue is you didn鈥檛 see this Primark underwear on the high street, did you?

JEM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yes, I was really excited one day, I woke up 鈥� because I film an episode on my YouTube channel called Disability News 鈥� saw that Primark had launched this range. Headed very excitedly to my local branch, which was Brighton, went to look for the underwear and I couldn鈥檛 find it. I could find all shapes and sizes and little bits of string that they call underwear [laughs], but I couldn鈥檛 find the adaptive line. They said, 鈥淥h maybe you could click-and-collect鈥� so I thought okay, I鈥檒l give them the benefit of the doubt, maybe I can click-and-collect. Went home. My nearest store for click-and-collect was Croydon, 40 miles away!

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 So, you鈥檙e probably not going to go 40 miles away for an 拢8 pair of knickers?

JEM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 With a disability.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 With a disability, yeah.

JEM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 No chance.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 So, why, Victoria, is it not available in all the stores do you think?

VICTORIA-听听听听听听 Obviously I鈥檓 a bit guessing in the dark, but I assume that because it is a new project that to just have it available in every single store across, you know, they鈥檝e got something like 330 stores globally, to make that much product when they鈥檝e never done it before I think they just didn鈥檛 want to overproduce. So, they鈥檙e trying to be a bit more sort of ethical and sustainable.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 And what鈥檚 the price of the Primark range? And what would the price be if it was a specialist adaptive company?

VICTORIA-听听听听听听 Well, that鈥檚 the thing. And I do really feel for these small independent brands, not unlike my own, that have been trying to do this, and it obviously costs us more because we don鈥檛 have that kind of resource behind us. But yeah, I think the fact that it鈥檚 more affordable obviously makes it so much better for this community. We all know that we鈥檙e more likely to live below the poverty line, like 50% of us do, so I think it鈥檚 really important. And obviously higher end or just sustainable, if we talk about sustainable brands as well that are in this space, they are like 拢50 to 拢70; 拢8 just massively makes it easier for everybody.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 And Jem have you used adaptive underwear brands before? And how has your experience been?

JEM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I haven鈥檛 had as much experience with adaptive underwear as I would potentially like, mainly because of the availability and the cost. I have tried some adaptive period underwear, which were really nice, really soft. But the clasps actually were surprisingly fiddly.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Oh no!

JEM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah [laughs]. You know, there鈥檚 that line with trying to make them adaptive and user-friendly for everybody who may have dexterity issues. I think that鈥檚 where it can become quite tricky.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 It sounds like you can feel the pain of someone trying to get a range like this off the ground, because your business has a very specific demographic.

VICTORIA-听听听听听听 Yes.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 So, will this range from Primark, do you think, be a success?

VICTORIA-听听听听听听 Yeah, I really do think this is a step in the right direction. There just needs to be more. They need to be in all the stores [laughs]. And I think it鈥檚 again a piece about communicating with this community. I think the fear is always that they鈥檝e never worked with this community in this way before so it鈥檚 completely new territory for them. So, I think there needs to be a little bit of grace given especially, because it not like any other high street stores are doing, so I鈥檓 sure there鈥檚 a tiny bit of they鈥檙e trying. I鈥檓 sure they鈥檒l make mistakes. I鈥檝e made mistakes and I will continue to make mistakes. It鈥檚 just a question of hoping to see more and hoping that they can expand it.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 One of the things about Primark鈥檚 range is they had disabled models modelling the bras and knickers involved. And we got in touch with them to find out what their experience was like, and here鈥檚 what they had to say:

GLEN-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 My name is Glen, or Glen the Great. I have Amniotic Band Syndrome, so I鈥檓 missing fingers on my left hand and I wear artificial limbs on both my legs. This was an amazing campaign for me to be in as I only have one hand, so the adaptive underwear range is absolutely brilliant for me. But I鈥檓 really pleased that we鈥檙e finally on the high street. Whoop-whoop! We need more and more campaigns which promote disability and inclusion, and this is just the beginning of the beginning and I really cannot wait to see what lies ahead.

EMMA LIONS- Hey, I鈥檓 Emma Lions and I have a condition called Charcot Marie Tooth which is a neuromuscular condition. For me it means that I am a full-time wheelchair user and have limited dexterity in my hands. This range is literally history making. I do think that underwear is a great place to start as it鈥檚 like the base of any outfit. And how empowering it is if you haven鈥檛 been able to put on your own bra for so long to now being able to have that freedom and independence to do that.

TIA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Hi, my name is Tia and I have cerebral palsy. And I am incredibly grateful because I鈥檓 not a model but I鈥檓 so lucky to have been asked to do this shoot. And I really enjoyed it because it鈥檚 really liberating. And I鈥檓 so happy that they are putting adaptive underwear and clothing in mainstream brands, because this is something that needs to be promoted more.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 It was so nice to hear from the models, and they鈥檙e so enthusiastic as well. Here鈥檚 one for you: do men need adaptive underwear?

JEM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I believe so.

VICTORIA-听听听听听听 Yes, they absolutely do.

JEM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, yeah. You know, if you鈥檙e a male presenting wheelchair user you are still going to have the same difficulties putting on underwear.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 That sounds so obvious, but a lot of it is about bras, isn鈥檛 it though, because that seems to the tricky thing, and bra fitting for some people.

JEM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, well bras are tricky I think even if you don鈥檛 have a disability. Who came up with the idea of putting them around the back anyway?

VICTORIA-听听听听听听 I know. That鈥檚 got to have been a male decision because it鈥檚 definitely I don鈥檛 know a single woman who wouldn鈥檛 prefer front fastening generally to be the standard.

JEM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 That could be a universal change.

VICTORIA-听听听听听听 Yeah.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Front fastening between the boobs?

JEM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah.

VICTORIA-听听听听听听 Which does exist, but it鈥檚 usually advertised like really saucy. Now, I鈥檝e seen it in films where they sort of undo it, and it鈥檚 all from the front, and you鈥檙e like, okay, that鈥檚 also just helpful [laughter].

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah.

VICTORIA-听听听听听听 Not just sexy [laughter].

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 As important for it to be easy to put on as it is for it to be easy to take off, right?

VICTORIA-听听听听听听 Yes, exactly.

JEM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 For every eventuality.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 So, we reached out to Primark and we asked them a few questions. And one of the questions we asked was why people are struggling to get this underwear in their stores:

HEIDI-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Hi, my name鈥檚 Heidi Williams de Rincon, and I鈥檓 the head of buying here at Primark. When we introduce any new range at Primark we鈥檒l often launch it just through a few selected stores to help us understand the customer demand and the response to the product range. This is a very unique and new type of product for us, and we want to ensure that the inclusive design features that we鈥檙e applying are exactly what our customers want and are looking for. And these learnings will help us to understand how we might scale our offering in the future.

JEM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 They have done as much as they could, you know, including disability advocates, consultants, models. I just feel it鈥檚 just this last hurdle that they have slight stumbled across. But what Primark have done is amazing, and that definitely needs to be celebrated.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Is there anything else you鈥檇 like to see from adaptive underwear, ladies?

VICTORIA-听听听听听听 I鈥檇 like to see them do men鈥檚, I think that鈥檚 also important, you know, not to be forgotten.听 I mean, menswear is already really hard to find across the board if you鈥檙e non-disabled and disabled, so that needs to be brought in hopefully soon.

JEM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Maybe gender neutral type as well.

VICTORIA-听听听听听听 Yes, definitely.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 So, how would we make men鈥檚 adaptive underwear happen? And would there be any difference now in the way that would be designed and produced than with women鈥檚? Obviously there鈥檚 the comfy fabric, there鈥檚 the fastenings; is there anything else they need to take into account?

VICTORIA-听听听听听听 Yes, access tubes for catheters, which I think also needs to be included in the women鈥檚, but as well as for men鈥檚. So, yeah, openings for catheters; different ways of getting in and out of them; the fabric consideration.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Underwear that鈥檚 gentle on your bits when you鈥檙e sitting down basically?

VICTORIA-听听听听听听 Yes. And I think also it needs to be different shapes. It can鈥檛 just be, like for when we have thongs, French, Brazilian and all these things, you鈥檇 need to do it in briefs, you鈥檇 need to do it in shorts, and you鈥檇 need to do it in different lengths of shorts depending on what that person needs and what they ask for. And there鈥檚 also people with prosthetic legs, they鈥檙e not going to want to have shorts either, so that鈥檚 why you need to have the brief as well.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Victoria Jenkins and Jem Hubbard thank you so much for coming in and chatting to me all about adaptive underwear.

VICTORIA-听听听听听听 Thank you for having me.

JEM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Thank you.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 That鈥檚 your lot for this week folks. I would love to know your thoughts on Nathan鈥檚 need for a short break in Florida. And also I鈥檇 love to hear about all your fashion finds and fashion hacks as well. We love a voice note here at Access All Towers. Please record and hit send to 0330 123 9480, starting your message by writing the words Access All. If texting isn鈥檛 your thing you can email us, it鈥檚 accessall@bbc.co.uk, or find us on X @麻豆社AccessAll.听

FEMALE-听听听听听听听听听 The time for talk is over.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 That was just too good not to use again. Ciao.

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