麻豆社

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27th December 2023

bbc.co.uk/accessall

Access All 鈥� episode 84

Presented by Nikki Fox and Emma Tracey

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NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Hello! This is Access All, and we are here to wish a very merry Twixmas. What am I going on about? Well, Twixmas, that鈥檚 the bit between Christmas and New Year where I don鈥檛 wash my hair and I look like Doc from Back to the Future. But there鈥檚 also a lot of time in that time to listen to your favourite podcast, Access All.

MUSIC-听听听听听听听听听听 Theme music.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Hello, it鈥檚 Access All. I鈥檓 Nikki Fox and I鈥檓 in London.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 And I鈥檓 Emma Tracey and I鈥檓 in Edinburgh.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Now, we鈥檙e here really just to keep the magic of Christmas going 鈥� fingers crossed. We鈥檙e looking back at some of our favourite interviews from the year so far. We鈥檝e got some fab guests who we have on every week, so we can squish them all down into one handy pod.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Do you remember that surprising conversation that we had with Melanie and her sex worker, Chayse?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Oh, I love that one, Emma.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, that鈥檚 in there. And we鈥檙e also going to play back the bit of Jack Thorne鈥檚 interview where he talked about being diagnosed autistic, and whether that has informed his work or not. Really interesting as well.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 These are really great. We can say that with confidence because we were there at the time.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 So, stay where you are, whether that鈥檚 in bed or by the fire or eating a Ferrero Rocher. Just enjoy the memories.

[Jingle Bells] So, shall we start with a bang? Jack Thorne. Jack is the fella behind the Sharon Horgan and Michael Sheen drama, Best Interests. That was an emotional watch. And that was on the 麻豆社 back in June. And he鈥檚 also had a hand in the new Doctor Who and so much more.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 When Jack joined us he鈥檇 recently announced that he鈥檚 autistic. And of course we asked him about the diagnosis. And we were wondering whether it has informed his mountain of work. [Jingle Bells]

JACK-听听听听听听听听听听听听 I did Desert Island Discs and someone wrote to my agent afterwards going, I think Jack is autistic. So, I phoned my agent and said, 鈥楧o you think there鈥檚 any truth to it?鈥� and she said, 鈥榃ell yes鈥�. And I was like, 鈥楻eally?!鈥� and she was like, 鈥榊es鈥�. And then I went downstairs to my wife and went, 鈥楧o you think there鈥檚 any truth to this?鈥� and she was like, 鈥榊es, yeah鈥� [laughter]. And so I started pursuing it. It took a while but eventually yeah, I got this diagnosis. And it鈥檚 made sense for a lot of things for me. I鈥檓 still trying to figure out exactly what it means for my life, and I鈥檓 trying to stop it being an excuse for me to hide, which is my tendency. It鈥檚 had a positive impact on me generally.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 What was it you think your family and friends noticed in you to say yes straightaway?

JACK-听听听听听听听听听听听听 I think it鈥檚 probably in lots of little things. The thing that became apparent to me, that they talk a lot about women being diagnosed as autistic very late on because women become very good at masking, and I think I was very good at masking. And I think it鈥檚 probably helped my writing actually because I think I was constantly looking at other people for how they worked in order so that I could present something that worked as a version of me. I鈥檓 a very happy person now. I think it probably did leave me quite unhappy for a long time, particularly through childhood and in my 20s. I鈥檓 in a good place now.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 You talked about masking, which is where autistic people look at what other people are doing and do that. And you said you looked at other people to see how they worked. But I鈥檇 imagine none of them have worked as hard as you and written as many successful things as you. Here鈥檚 just a list of some of the things that Jack has been involved with:

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Written the stage play, Harry Potter and the Cursed Child; the film Enola Holmes; the television programme, His Dark Materials; he鈥檚 been involved in writing Skins, Shameless and This is England; co-wrote Then Barbara Met Alan 鈥� amazing, and Please Don鈥檛 Take My Baby 鈥� amazing. We鈥檝e had quite a few autistic people over the past year on Access All and lots of them talk about their ability to hyperfocus. Do you think that鈥檚 part of what makes you so prolific? Or if not what鈥檚 your secret?

JACK-听听听听听听听听听听听听 When I got diagnosed the first thing I sort of said was, 鈥榃here am I on the spectrum?鈥� and the doctor said, 鈥榃e don鈥檛 believe in that anymore鈥�. And I sort of feel like that about it. And that鈥檚 part of I think my journey with it, which is just kind of like I don鈥檛 quite know what it has made me and I don鈥檛 quite know what it will make me. And so things like hyperfocus I just worry about it a bit as a sort of, like, definition.

I like writing, I find great pleasure in writing. My wife used to, whenever I was in a mess, she just used to say, 鈥楪o away and write, and then you鈥檒l come down a human again鈥�. I think that that has been my saving grace really through my life is the ability to be able to write and find comfort in creating situations where I can understand situations better. I don鈥檛 know whether it鈥檚 hyperfocus or whatever, but I think it鈥檚 that I take great pleasure in understanding. And I think that the thing that exhausts me, if I have to spend a day on set I come home and I am totally exhausted; if I have to spend 14 hours writing I鈥檓 not exhausted at all. I鈥檓 a bit tired but I鈥檓 not really exhausted at all. It鈥檚 the navigating through how to be the person that people want me to be in those situations that I find really, really tough. I just find writing very soothing since I was a kid. So, I think it鈥檚 just I love it.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 [Jingle bells] You know me, traditionally fan girlie over some of our guests, and I was a bit with Jack actually because he鈥檚 doing so much. It feels like there鈥檚 a real change within particularly the sort of acting industry at the moment, and he鈥檚 kind of, like, a big part of that, isn鈥檛 he?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah. And what I loved about that clip, he said that it brings him so much joy to understand people鈥檚 experiences. And that鈥檚 really what he does so well is get under the skin of a person and how they would experience the world, and write it down. And then it feels like you鈥檙e watching someone really experiencing something when you鈥檙e watching an actor in one of his dramas.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 It鈥檚 exactly what Ruth Madeley said about Russell T. Davies, as well, wasn鈥檛 it, that he takes the time to understand?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Yes. Obviously the best writers do.

JINGLE-听听听听听听听听听 Access All with Nikki Fox.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Well, let鈥檚 stick with TV and film now, eh, Ems. Because if you鈥檙e using this in-between bit of the holidays to watch all the Harry Potter films 鈥� I love this part where you can just watch back to back films.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Yes.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Well, you鈥檙e probably have guessed with the Harry Potter films that the lead actor, Daniel Radcliffe, well he doesn鈥檛 play all his own Quidditch, does he? He didn鈥檛 do all his own stunts; I鈥檓 sure he did a lot of them but not all of them. The job went to our next guest, David Holmes. Now, David became paralysed from the chest down when a stunt went wrong during rehearsals for Deathly Hallows Part 1. When he joined us in November to promote a documentary all about his life, called The Boy Who Lived, he let it be known that he is still most definitely a stuntman. [Jingle bells]

DAVID-听听听听听听听听听听 I grew up in a very hard sport where gymnastics nothing is gained without hard work. And it instilled an amazing lesson which I carry with me every single day. So, even now to this day I still try and find ways to push myself. So, I sit at the bottom of a pool with a scuba bottle on and I do breath holds. It was only two weeks ago I managed to break my record.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Did you? What鈥檚 your record?

DAVID-听听听听听听听听听听 Well, even with a reduced lung function I can do 4 minutes and 25 seconds.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 You what?!

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 No! You鈥檙e just an extreme, extreme sportsperson. I watched a film about free diving there recently and it鈥檚 so scary. You just love the scariness, do you?

DAVID-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, well you鈥檙e only living when you鈥檙e nearly dying, right?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Oh my god.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 [Laughs] do you know what else I love? Your mate, your best mate who is now your PA, isn鈥檛 he?

DAVID-听听听听听听听听听听 Tommy.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah.

DAVID-听听听听听听听听听听 Tommy鈥檚 the yin to my yang, the man that grounds me, yeah.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Is he really?

DAVID-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Because I use PAs to get around, I鈥檝e got my lovely Libby and we鈥檝e got such a beautiful friendship. But Tommy was your mate, wasn鈥檛 he, beforehand.

DAVID-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 And obviously you and him now work together, which is great.

DAVID-听听听听听听听听听听 I love him. There is no truer commitment and dedication of friendship than what that man does for me. And I鈥檓 very, very grateful.

[Clip]

TOMMY-听听听听听听听听 I鈥檒l give him a little bit of sympathy, but then it鈥檚 got to be right, come on, game face on, we鈥檝e got to get on with this.

[End of clip]

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 How did that all come about? Did you guys just decide together, oh do you want to do this? Or he was just like I鈥檒l do it?

DAVID-听听听听听听听听听听 No, he was, when I came out of hospital him and Mark, who鈥檚 in the film, Mark鈥檚 brother Darren, another good friend of mine, him and Mark were the two men that carried me up the stairs from my first home visit to get me in the bath and help me wash. And Tommy has been picking me up ever since. I have been in his arms. I would like to not be in his arms more than his own child, [laughter] but over the years we鈥檝e been working together I probably have.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Ah.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Friendship is massive for you, isn鈥檛 it?

DAVID-听听听听听听听听听听 Huge.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Friendship is massive. And another friend, who probably hasn鈥檛 carried you up the stairs, maybe he has, Daniel Radcliffe.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 I bet he has.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Do you think he has?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 I bet he has.

DAVID-听听听听听听听听听听 He鈥檚 helped me in and out of bed before, absolutely, yeah.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 You鈥檝e been friends all the way through, haven鈥檛 you? Like we see you in the documentary in hospital and he鈥檚 shoving marshmallows in his mouth. Tell us about that friendship?

DAVID-听听听听听听听听听听 I mean, it built from the early days. I was Dan鈥檚 PE teacher throughout the Potter films. So, he would come to me in the stunt stores, we would lock up the doors and I would let him play. We would jump off a portacabin, swing swords around, we would bounce on the trampoline 鈥� all the things that would make an insurance company pass out with worry well, I made sure that we created an environment that he could still just be a kid and jump around.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Shout out to dad on the Christmas special. My dad is our biggest fan.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Hey, Mr Fox.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Dad absolutely loved that interview; he thought David was a right cracker. I mean, he is definitely an example of someone just getting on with it. Because being in and out of hospital that amount of times, you know, the stuff that he鈥檚 had to put up with, it鈥檚 a lot to deal with. But he really has got something. What makes him that way I do not know; because I鈥檓 just trying to sleep with a CPAP on at nighttime and that鈥檚 nearly finished me off. But what makes him the way he is I do not know, but he鈥檚 so resilient, so strong, I love it.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, because I don鈥檛 think it came across in the interview so much, but he鈥檚 in constant pain and he鈥檚 losing movement and he鈥檚 getting more infections, etc. etc. Like, it covers that in the documentary, that鈥檚 just not me giving away all his secrets. But we didn鈥檛 cover that in the interview so much because that鈥檚 not the most interesting thing about him.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 No, absolutely. Nicely said there, Ems.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Thanks, Nikki.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 We loved him, didn鈥檛 we? And I love all his mates as well, they鈥檙e dead tight.

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Now, someone else whose mental strength has been tested recently is comedian Rosie Jones. I mean, she鈥檚 really had to work on being resilient. Rosie joined Emma and I in the studio in the middle of filming a documentary for Channel 4 all about ableist trolling. The reason why she was making that documentary was because she鈥檇 received so much of her own, particularly after she went on 麻豆社鈥檚 Question Time. And all the unpleasant stories that she uncovered and obviously having to deal with her own trolling which was, I mean, on another level, she wasn鈥檛 herself that day at all. She seemed quite unhappy and it was awful to see really. She gets pretty graphic here when revealing what people have said about her, so just be warned. [Jingle bells]

ROSIE-听听听听听听听听听 Literally every ableist abuse under the sun. They told me that I should be in a cage.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 听 What?!

ROSIE-听听听听听听听听 I shouldn鈥檛 be on TV. I should die. And it was because I was exposing myself to a different kind of audience. I think Question Time is brilliant, but it attracts a lot of angry people, and not only being female, disabled, gay. So, would I do it again? Yes. But I would go in there more prepared. I鈥檇 probably shut my Twitter down for a few weeks. But yeah, it is hard because I will always be political, I will always speak for what I believe, I will always champion diversity. But it鈥檚 hard, and it鈥檚 exhausting.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 听 When we were talking about it before, I find that really upsetting actually that level that you got. When we were talking about it as a team I was like, 鈥淥h yeah, when I first went on Watchdog I got told that I had eyebrows like McDonald鈥檚 golden arches鈥�. Do you know what I mean? It was the visual kind of stuff. And Nikki Fox looked strange. But that level, that must have been hard.

ROSIE-听听听听听听听听听 听听 Yeah. And I think being a woman and being gay means that every time I鈥檓 on TV I鈥檒l get a comment about what I sound like, my disability, my weight, and then what I look like, my teeth, my hair, and then the gay stuff. And what is awful, is every single one of those negative thoughts, I can go on social media right now and a stranger will be saying them back to me. So you鈥檙e right, yeah, whatever thoughts you鈥檝e ever had, I鈥檓 here to say you鈥檙e right. It鈥檚 so hard.

I鈥檓 trying to bring this back to my normal positive self, but it鈥檚 on my mind quite a lot, because I鈥檓 currently filming a documentary about online abuse and ableism, and that has been quite hard for me because a lot of the things that I鈥檝e shut away, patched over, I鈥檝e had to confront. And because of that, I鈥檓 in therapy. And I would recommend therapy for literally everyone out there, because I鈥檓 really dealing with a lot of internalised ableism and things that I probably painted over with a joke. But what I will say is, by talking about this I feel a lot of release, and it鈥檚 actually going. I am not Tigger, I am not that over-optimistic, eternally happy human being who goes, 鈥淚 love being disabled every day鈥�, because I don鈥檛 because society wears me down. I now think in order to eradicate that, in order to face the abuses, I鈥檝e got to come here and go, 鈥淵ou know what, it鈥檚 not okay鈥�.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 [Jingle bells] Well, that was lovely Rosie Jones. I mean, we could have played out that whole interview, couldn鈥檛 we, Em?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 We certainly could. It was wonderful. Even though she wasn鈥檛 in her happiest place that day she was still hilarious, and we absolutely loved it. She talked about her tour, she talked about being a disabled comedian amongst non-disabled comedians. She was brilliant. Loved it.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 She really was. But at the moment she鈥檚 having a great old time of it: she鈥檚 working really hard; she鈥檚 got some brilliant gigs under her belt. And now I think she鈥檚 hosting her own show with a live studio audience. That鈥檚 what the Instagram tells me, Emma Tracey.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 That鈥檚 what she seems to be hinting at all right.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 It does.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 So, before she gets absolutely everywhere and everyone is watching her all the time go back and listen to our interview on the Access All feed.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Oh yeah, please do, please do. And I鈥檓 going to find out what exactly it is she鈥檚 doing and we鈥檒l get her back in.

JINGLE-听听听听听听听听听 Access All.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Just a little warning about this next interview: we do talk about sex. So, if you鈥檝e got any kids around you might want to go into another room and have a listen.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Stick your headphones in.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Or put your headphones in. Very good, Emma.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 It was such a standout interview for us from the year, wasn鈥檛 it?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, it really was. We met Melanie and sex worker Chayse back in April. Now, Melanie is a wheelchair using Australian woman in her 40s, and she hadn鈥檛 had sex until recently. During the pandemic her PA gave her a massage because she had a bit of a sore neck. Now, she hadn鈥檛 been touched that intimately before, and she suddenly realised how much she wanted to be touched like that. Now, her PA 鈥� this is just brilliant 鈥� happened to be a former sex worker. She was speaking to her PA about this, because they have a great relationship, and her PA said, 鈥淲ell, listen, why don鈥檛 you hire one, Melanie?鈥� Now, Melanie was a bit surprised at the idea to begin with, but then she couldn鈥檛 get it out of her head.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 So, she did a bit of sex worker shopping, didn鈥檛 she?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 She did.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 And here鈥檚 what happened next [Jingle bells]:

MELANIE-听听听听听 Chayse listed that he did disabled clients, and I really liked his smile, and his rates were more reasonable than some of the others, which kind of shocked me how expensive it is.

That night I told Tracy what I鈥檇 done and she so pleased and proud of me that I鈥檇 taken that step and looked in. For the whole weekend I couldn鈥檛 get it out of my head. Then the Monday afternoon I found myself with a few extra minutes to kill and I looked Chayse up again and sent him an email. He called me within like 10 or 15 minutes and we chatted on the phone and I asked my million questions and told him I鈥檇 think about it. But the more I thought about it, the more I said I鈥檇 have to try it.

EMMA-听听听听听听听 听听听 And what were the million questions? I鈥檓 interested.

MELANIE-听听听 听听 Oh, what were they, Chayse? Have you used the hoist before was one of my questions. 鈥淗ow hard can it be? It鈥檚 just up and down鈥�, was his answer! My place or his? I asked if he had wheelchair access and he said yes.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 听 Logistics.

MELANIE-听听听 听听 So, my first session was at Chayse鈥檚 house, and I didn鈥檛 quite get the happy ending that I was after but it wasn鈥檛 because of lack of trying. Chayse went to all sorts of lengths to try, but it didn鈥檛 work out my end. But we got on really well.

CHAYSE-听听听听听 听听 What didn鈥檛 work out on your end, Melanie? [Laughs]

MELANIE-听听听 听听 I鈥檓 not going to say! I didn鈥檛 get my happy ending.

CHAYSE-听听听听听 听听 Yeah, I think the big 鈥極鈥� is very situational in this kind of field, especially when you haven鈥檛 had one for yourself. This is what a lot of people don鈥檛 understand is that it takes time to find what you enjoy.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 听听 You mean orgasm?

CHAYSE-听听听听听 听听 Yeah.

MELANIE-听听听 听听 Yes.

CHAYSE-听听听听听 听听 I wouldn鈥檛 encourage her to come here the first time expecting to have the big 鈥極鈥�, because having those kind of sexpectations on a first meeting is quite impossible, and also a bad thing to have on your mind.

MELANIE-听听听 听听 It was my first time I鈥檇 been naked in front of a man.

CHAYSE-听听听听听 听听 Yeah, your situation is a bit different. And unfortunately Melanie鈥檚 never had one. You鈥檝e got to figure out what is going to work for her so she can make it easier in the future.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 听 Melanie, I wanted to come to you as well because I know you鈥檙e very open and honest so I don鈥檛 think you鈥檒l mind me asking. I鈥檓 physically disabled as well and I was single for a very long time, about 150 years really, Melanie, but I鈥檇 had sex before. No-one needs to hear this, but I鈥檇 had sex before but it had been quite a long time, and then I met my partner and everything. But for me, when we got to that stage, it was the physical things that I was most hung up about. It was am I going to be able to get into the right position? Is this going to absolutely whack me out, you know? Just those kind of things really played on my mind beforehand. When you鈥檙e with someone you love, or you鈥檙e with someone like Chayse who is a total professional, you know pretty quick you don鈥檛 have to worry. But did those things play on your mind beforehand?

MELANIE-听听听 Yeah. Well, that鈥檚 the whole reason I booked Chayse was to explore what works and what doesn鈥檛, what my body鈥檚 capable of and what it鈥檚 not, what I like and what I don鈥檛 like. I didn鈥檛 want to get into bed with or go home with a guy from a bar and find out these things in an awkward vulnerable unsafe manner. I knew by booking Chayse and paying for the service that I would be in control, and we would work together to explore all these different things in the bedroom.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 And you guys must have such a good relationship. I guess it鈥檚 a conversation, isn鈥檛 it, as well as鈥�?

MELANIE-听听听 听听 Yeah.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 听 That must be probably one of the most important parts.

MELANIE-听听听 听听 Although I do like the spontaneity and the surprises that we come up with each other.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 听听 What did you learn about your own body, the positions and how you move?

MELANIE-听听 听听听 I know that my legs can be unpredictable and fling off the bed at any stage. [Laughter] That kind of hurts.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 听 They go up, then the go down. I鈥檓 with you there, Melanie.

MELANIE-听听听 听听 Yeah. So now I鈥檝e worked out that they need to be fastened to the bed beforehand, and then there鈥檚 no worry about them flinging off the bed at any moment. I had to see my physio a few times after each session because we got into a bit of trouble with my legs going all sorts of places.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 [Jingle bells] Well, that interview with Melanie and Chayse really did stay with us, didn鈥檛 it, Ems?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Absolutely.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 And so did our next one, Victoria Canal. She鈥檚 a young singer-songwriter. She is mwah. Please google her. She鈥檚 also got limb difference, and I鈥檇 been dying to get her on the podcast for a very long time, since I saw her on Jools Holland actually. And we managed to get her in and we caught up with her just after she鈥檇 released her first songs, which were very personal and referencing her body and how she feels about it. She hadn鈥檛 done that before.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 So, she told us how she鈥檚 starting to learn to navigate the music industry and to start feeling better about herself. [Jingle bells]

VICTORIA-听听听听 I have a pretty incredible team of people around me who put a lot of effort into how we approach anything when it comes to interviews, and what opportunities we鈥檙e taking. Everything is incredibly intentional, and I have my manager, Andrew, is my ride or die and he is protecting me every step of the way. And I think we鈥檝e both been growing and navigating how to take advantage of opportunities as they come but without feeling like I鈥檓 being tokenised or cheapened in any way; which has been inevitable in certain situations because, I don鈥檛 know, I think it鈥檚 almost like trendy these days to highlight people like me. Which is I guess good in many ways, but then it all just feels like鈥�

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 听 It鈥檚 a fine balance though, isn鈥檛 it?

VICTORIA-听听听听 鈥�it feels so performative in some ways, you know.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 听 Yeah.

VICTORIA-听听听 So, I think it鈥檚 like a constant navigating and I just feel really lucky that I鈥檓 supported in a way that I don鈥檛 have to do it all alone. And we鈥檙e just trying our best, you know. But I definitely still struggle with not really knowing if I am where I am because of my disability.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 听 No.

VICTORIA-听听听听 Or just because of my talent or鈥�

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 We now just want to shower you with soppy love.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 听 Yes. No, I didn鈥檛 even know.

VICTORIA-听听听听 You know what I mean though.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Yes, we鈥檝e had those struggles in our minds many times, Victoria.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 听 Victoria, the amount of times, every morning I get up and say, I鈥檓 only on the TV because I鈥檓 a bird in a scooter. You do, you think like that.

EMMA-听听 听听听听听听听 Internalised ableism.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 听 Imposter syndrome kind of thing.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 听听 Yeah, it鈥檚 our version of imposter syndrome. We鈥檝e sucked in what society thinks.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 听 Are you upset?

VICTORIA-听听听听 I鈥檓 not upset.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 听 You鈥檙e not upset?

VICTORIA-听听听听 I鈥檓 just a crier.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 听 Oh, I鈥檓 a crier too. Don鈥檛, I鈥檒l start crying, Victoria [laughter].

VICTORIA-听听听听 I mean, you know what, you were talking about mental health on this podcast, which is super important too I think. It鈥檚 tough out here. It鈥檚 tough to be labelled [voice breaks] and not have much control over how you鈥檙e perceived by the world. It鈥檚 definitely something that I struggle with sometimes, you know what I mean.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah.

VICTORIA-听听听听 I didn鈥檛 expect to get emotionally, sorry.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 听 Oh Victoria.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听 听 But honestly, when I was your age, when we were in our early 20s, it鈥檚 taken us a lot of years to be hard-arsed about it.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 听 Yeah, it comes with time.

VICTORIA-听听听听 Yeah, I think that鈥檚 the other thing is, like, my personality is just I鈥檓, like, incredibly open, to be honest; maybe to a fault sometimes.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 That鈥檚 why your songs are so beautiful.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 听 Don鈥檛 change.

VICTORIA-听听听听 I won鈥檛 change.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 And raw and gorgeous.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 听 I say it. My sister tells me all the time, sometimes I鈥檓 just way too open and too soft and stuff. But I don鈥檛 want to change. You don鈥檛 want to.

VICTORIA-听听听 听 Yeah, I think there鈥檚 such strength in vulnerability. There鈥檚 no use in pretending that everything is just peachy all the time because who鈥檚 going to feel understood by that? And I think as a songwriter and just as a person I think one of the things that makes me feel most fulfilled is feeling connected to others, and you can really only do that when you鈥檙e being real about your experience.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 听 Exactly.

VICTORIA-听听听听 No one has a perfect life. Also that鈥檚 my experience being maybe not judged, but maybe pitied or observed a certain way because of my difference, or maybe I鈥檓 only granted certain things because of my disability. But you could say the same for anyone who鈥檚 conventionally pretty or anyone who鈥檚 queer who鈥檚 only getting a queer spotlight. Just all these things that are happening right now because of a label. And it鈥檚 so interesting that we鈥檙e in a time where representation is expanding, which is so positive, but then we鈥檙e still being defined by these things that are so one-dimensional. It鈥檚 like we鈥檙e all incredibly complex beings with multiple facets and so much to our stories, and so to be defined by one thing is just really isolating sometimes.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 [Jingle bells] I鈥檇 like to think that she gained something from going that interview with us, because when she was getting emotional we were like, don鈥檛 worry, don鈥檛 worry, we鈥檝e been around for ages.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 We鈥檙e like really old birds, Victoria, trust us.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 We鈥檙e used to doing this.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 And I hope that that was of some comfort to her.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Well, I think it was actually because I had some messages afterwards, and I do think she was very comfortable just talking to people who had also got disabilities as well. I don鈥檛 think she鈥檇 actually done that, you know. A lot of people do say that, don鈥檛 they, that it鈥檚 easier to talk to us because we kind of get it for that reason. She鈥檚 probably just done loads of interviews, like various music mags or whatever, with someone that鈥檚, I don鈥檛 know, just not get it, just hasn鈥檛 got it, you know. 听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I鈥檓 going to say this might not have been our most professional interview, but Emma and I both know this next guest on a personal level. The guy in question actually presented this show before it was Access All, so we were all over the place really. But it was just great chatting to the one and the only Simon Minty. I mean, listeners might know him now from Gogglebox. He鈥檚 on with his sister. I mean, he鈥檚 amazing, Simon, we love him. He鈥檚 also very good at helping businesses get more inclusive. And he also medalled in the Dwarfs Sports Games, which we didn鈥檛 even know, did we?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 No, that wasn鈥檛 something we knew about Simon Minty. But he was very, very keen, let鈥檚 say, to tell us all about it, wasn鈥檛 he?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 He certainly was.

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 [Jingle bells] When did you get so sporty, Simon? Come on, tell us.

SIMON-听听听听听听听听听听 There is an organisation in the UK called the Dwarf Sports Association UK, and it鈥檚 been around 30 plus years. And I鈥檇 always go to it, and for many years I was like a journalist, I鈥檇 write about it because I didn鈥檛 want to compete. And then over the last five or six years I鈥檓 like, stop it now, you鈥檝e got to do something. You start with boccia, which is the beanbag game, most people听 can play it. And then I did rifle shooting, but there was the World Games in Cologne, the eighth, so they鈥檙e every four years they are, they鈥檙e really rare.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Wow.

SIMON-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, exactly. And they said we鈥檙e not doing shooting, we can鈥檛 get the rifles, the permit. And I said, I can鈥檛 just do boccia, I鈥檝e got to do something else. So, I thought I鈥檇 do this, it鈥檚 called a bench press: you lay on your back, you push the weights up. I joined the gym a year before and I said to my trainer would you help me. So, we really racked it up. The last session I had with him we did it real condition, so I had to wear all my kit, he was timing me, I had to do a warm-up. I wanted him to get the whole of the gym to start cheering and clapping, but he wouldn鈥檛 do that [laughter]. And then I mean, the add-on by the way, I鈥檓 a little bit older than most of the competitors. And they do it by weight, so you鈥檙e categorised by your own weight, not by your age.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Right.

SIMON-听听听听听听听听听听 Which I thought oh, I don鈥檛 stand a chance [laughs] I mean, I鈥檓 like 15 plus minimum, if not more years older than everybody else. But I did manage to medal. And the reason I medalled was because I had three good lifts of around 50kg. And the guy who won did 120kg in one lift.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Wow.

SIMON-听听听听听听听听听听 But he failed his other two.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 So, you were slow and steady wins the race.

SIMON-听听听听听听听听听听 Exactly. I鈥檓 the tortoise yeah, you鈥檝e got it.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 You鈥檙e the tortoise.

SIMON-听听听听听听听听听听 Exactly.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Can I ask why is it weight? Why does it go by your weight?

SIMON-听听听听听听听听听听 I presuming that your weight means you might have more strength or more capability. I mean, people with dwarfism have different length arms, and I鈥檓 almost like surely it should be length of our limbs and so on.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, yeah.

SIMON-听听听听听听听听听听 And there was the awful moment, the night before we had to do weigh in, and someone said you鈥檝e got to go down to that room, and there was a big partition and I walked round the other side of it and there鈥檚 25 blokes with dwarfism all in their underwear. And I thought, well I haven鈥檛 done this for a while, if ever. And we鈥檙e all standing around in our pants just chatting about what we鈥檙e going to do tomorrow, and all our bodies are a little kind of sticking out here and sticking out there 鈥� not that bit [laughter] 鈥� our general shape. I mean, it鈥檚 also I double up, I love it because of the sport and I鈥檓 a middle-aged man or older man doing athletics that I never did. And as you said, you never saw me like that, so that鈥檚鈥�

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 How do you find the time? How do you find the time, Simon Minty?

SIMON-听听听听听听听听听听 When you鈥檙e an elite athlete like me, Nikki, you just, you know, your body鈥檚 telling you. I鈥檓 making this up. I don鈥檛 know [laughter]. I鈥檓 struggling now. The flipside, don鈥檛 forget, which is the bit I love which is hanging out with 600 people from all around the world, just like me.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Yes.

SIMON-听听听听听听听听听听 We were in the club the last night and I couldn鈥檛 get out; there was a sea of people and I thought oh, I鈥檓 on my scooter, this is going to take forever to bump through them. And I started moving and then the sea just opened, they all moved out of the way and they all made sure everyone else鈥� And I鈥檓 like when you鈥檙e with people like you, you just all get it. So, there鈥檚 lovely moments like that.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 I鈥檓 in it for the pants chat.

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Now, that鈥檚 a sports mindset I think we can all get behind, don鈥檛 you think?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Absolutely. That鈥檚 my kind of sportsperson.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah. That鈥檚 it for now, but we are going to be back in January with brand spanking new episodes.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 And in the meantime use all that free time you鈥檝e got there on the sofa, pressing the subscribe button. We will then drop onto your device every week and you won鈥檛 be able to get rid of us, which is a good thing.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 We also absolutely love, love, love hearing from you, so please do send us a message. You can do that on X, formerly Twitter. Our handle鈥檚 @麻豆社AccessAll. Or you can email us accessall@bbc.co.uk. Thank you so much for listening, and merry Christmas and all of that.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Happy Hogmanay.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Oh yeah, you鈥檙e Scottish. No, you鈥檙e Irish.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Well, I鈥檝e got a foot in both camps.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, that鈥檚 it.

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