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17th March 2023

bbc.co.uk/accessall

Access All – Episode 44

Presented by Emma Tracey

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EMMA-Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý ÌýIt’s a bit weird this week, I’m not going to lie. I’m on my own. Poor Nikki’s not well at all. I really need something or someone to bounce off for this bit of the show. I need a bit of a tune to dance to maybe or something like that. [Music] Oh yeah. Can you just hear the little tones of the Blue Peter theme tune there? It’s almost, almost unrecognisable but not quite. We are having the new Blue Peter presenter, Abby Cook, on the show this week. She’s disabled, she’s young, she’s Scottish, she’s brilliant; I can’t wait to speak to her. We’re going to talk about the Christine McGuiness autism documentary, really important documentary. And we’re going to speak to Tom Pursglove, minister for disabled people, about the budget announcements this week. Right, let’s get on with the show.

MUSIC-Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý ÌýTheme music.

EMMA-Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý ÌýThis is Access All, the Â鶹Éç’s disability and mental health podcast, with me, Emma Tracey, in our London studio. Thanks for listening. And please tell your friends about us, get them to subscribe on Â鶹Éç Sounds or wherever they get their podcasts from. You can talk back to us, tell us stuff. We’ll be giving you our contact details later in the podcast.

Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý ÌýOn Wednesday Jeremy Hunt revealed his budget and there’s still lots of fallout and questions being asked in terms of what’s been planned for disabled people around employment and benefits. I went along to Talking Therapies in Tower Hamlets before the full details were published, to speak to the minister for disabled people, Tom Pursglove.

Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý[Interview] Tom, it’s good to see you again. We’re here to talk about the health and disability white paper. What have you announced?

TOM-Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý ÌýThe sort of key element of structural reform is that we will be removing the work capability assessment, which is something that for a long time has been a topic of debate, and there’s a lot of support for doing that, and replacing the current UC LCWRA element and replacing that with a UC health element. And that element will be awarded to people who are receiving the UC standard allowance, and any element of PIP. So, this is a significant structural change that we’re seeing that removes that work disincentive, ensures that if a particular role doesn’t work out for any reason that people’s benefit entitlement isn’t then altered and they’re able to then go back to that support as they had previously.

EMMA-Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý ÌýSo, you just mentioned PIP, personal independence payment, which currently is a non-means tested benefit. It’s given to people to kind of go some way towards dealing with the extra costs of being disabled, which we know there are many. And that’s now going to be aligned with whether you can work or not? How’s that going to work? Because PIP was in no related to that before.

TOM-Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý ÌýNo, so they will remain two distinct benefits; which is an important point to make. But there will no longer be the work capability assessment. The only assessment that there will be going forward is the personal independence payment assessment. And another part of the reform that we’re introducing, and I think is really welcome based on the feedback that I get very regularly, is that people say to me, we would rather be assessed by someone who has got expertise and knowledge of the particular condition that I have. And what we’ll be doing in future is testing, matching somebody’s health condition with a specialist expert assessor to try and make sure that we get more decisions right first time and the people get the support that they ought to be receiving.

EMMA-Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý ÌýSo, the PIP assessment will change to bring in work elements?

TOM-Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý ÌýI don’t anticipate that there would need to be particularly radical change to that PIP assessment in the new system. But what we will do is we will make sure that we work constructively to get this right, because this is flagship reform; it’s a really important change that we’re seeing delivered. It won’t be delivered immediately. I would hope that that will happen in the early stages of the next parliament. And then we’ll see an incremental geographical delivery of the reform, starting with new claims in 2026, 2027, and making sure that we test and learn and get this right.

EMMA-Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý ÌýIf we’re going to have to be assessed for a personal independence payment and that’s going to affect the work related benefits that disabled people get, is it not just a rebranding of the work capability assessment then?

TOM-Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý ÌýSo, a lot of individuals that this is relevant to will already be receiving PIP. And those that are not receiving PIP we will be looking carefully at whether they would meet the eligibility criteria for PIP. And I also want to look closely at PIP more generally. I want to bring wait times down around PIP as much as is feasibly possible. There is work ongoing in that regard at the moment. And I think we should always be looking to make sure that our processes are fit for purpose, that these processes are as easy for people to navigate as possible. And that’s one of the reasons I think for example the digitalisation of PIP is really important because with the prompts and with the right support around application processes undoubtedly we can help people to navigate that journey more easily.

EMMA-Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý ÌýYeah, because over 40% of people who apply for PIP don’t get it first time at the moment so it will be interesting to see what changes that brings. Disability organisations that I’ve spoken to are really worried about the proposals, and they say that the plans will lead to more benefit related deaths. What do you say to that?

TOM-Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý ÌýSo, my experience of the conversations that I’ve had is that of course people want to see the detail and they want to study this and they want to be able to interrogate what it is that the government is proposing. And I’m really looking forward to the conversations over the coming weeks and months about these plans. And I repeat that point that I made a bit earlier that of course where work isn’t appropriate for people they will continue to receive the support that they receive, and that is absolutely right and proper.

EMMA-Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý ÌýDisability organisations are worried about these new proposals, these new plans, because they were very worried about the other plans because they felt that people were dying by suicide because their benefits were being taken off them, their lives were being disrupted. This is the fear that always surrounds work and work capability. And they’ve been asking the government for figures around this, campaigners have, and that those figures haven’t arrived. But what we do now have are figures from the Office for National Statistics which show that rates of suicide amongst disabled people are four times higher than amongst non-disabled people. We spoke a lot about those on Access All last week, and we had a very, very interesting conversation about them. Don’t they show that the government is failing disabled people?

TOM-Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý ÌýI think that this government is absolutely determined to do right by disabled people, building on the work that we have already done. I think it’s right that any lessons are learnt from any death in any circumstances. And we have processes in place within the Department for Work and Pensions that I am confident help us to do that, and to make sure that key learning is captured, and that that is then reflected in our processes. But I think more broadly what we’re announcing through the budget with the publication of the white paper, with the disability action plan that is coming, is about taking support and assistance for disabled people to the next level. I’m not complacent about that.

EMMA-Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý ÌýYeah, but four times higher! Four times higher is a lot, isn’t it?

TOM-Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý ÌýWhat we need to do is continue to build upon the work that has already taken place. I think that we’ve got an ambitious agenda to improve the lives of disabled people. And that’s what I want the disability action plan to play into.

EMMA-Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý ÌýAnd a kinder process as well?

TOM-Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý ÌýI think that our processes should always be responsive to people’s needs. And I think what we’re announcing is all about that: making sure there is that proper wraparound support and care for people that meets their needs. As I say, I really want people to feel supported in every aspect of their interactions with the Department for Work and Pensions and with government more generally. And I of course take that issue really seriously. And we have processes within the department that ensure that where issues arise that there is proper learning that comes on the back of that. I’ve agreed to meet with Rethink Mental Illness to talk about this issue in the coming weeks because I do take this really seriously, as I say. [End of interview]

EMMA-Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý ÌýThat was my chat with Tom yesterday, before all the full official announcements and the health and disability white paper was released. And off the back of those announcements we got an email from Emily:

EMILY-Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý ÌýJeremy Hunt said he wants to separate benefit entitlement from an individual’s ability to work. But if I hadn’t lost my ability to work I wouldn’t need benefits to survive. What of those of us who can’t work and aren’t eligible for PIP supposed to do? Universal credit isn’t enough to survive on without the health element. And if the other elements are only available to people who are working or looking for work then we’ll quickly lose that money to sanctions. The paper says there will be transitional money, but I’m scared of what happens after that. These changes will be good for some people, but a lot of us are going to lose financial support, and that’s going to have a huge impact on mental and physical health and will likely cost lives, in the same way that incorrect WCA decisions and benefit sanctions are already doing.

EMMA-Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý ÌýI think that the fears that Emily has expressed there are some that lots of people are going to be having right now. So, tell us about them. Tell us what you think in all the usual ways.

Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý ÌýThe government has now published the health and disability white paper. And there are a few extras in there that we weren’t expecting. So, we’ve brought in Michael Buchanan, social affairs correspondent, to make some sense of this very big document. Michael, I think disabled people can be quite protective of PIP because it’s a non-means tested benefit, it’s about meeting costs of being disabled. It’s nothing to do with work or getting into work. How are they connecting the two?

MICHAEL-Ìý Ìý Well, what the government are saying is they’re not really, or at least the message is so far, they’re not really going to touch PIP, but they’re going to use PIP or the test for PIP or the eligibility for PIP as a way to decide whether people who are ill as opposed to being disabled, whether they get access to additional health top-up. So, at the moment you can get the work capability assessment, which determines whether you get a health top-up of your universal credit because you were ill and can’t work. What they’re planning on doing is scrapping that test and making the PIP test, if you like, the passport benefit into whether people will get health top-ups for being ill. So, if somebody, from 2026 their plan is for new claimants – I need to emphasise that: for new claimants – then from 2026 if the government’s plans go through, what will happen is if somebody says that they are too ill to work will be asked to undergo the PIP test. And if they are eligible for PIP then they will get a health top-up and they will keep that health top-up even if they move into a job. However, if they don’t get PIP they won’t get the health top-up and they will be expected to seek work.

EMMA-Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý ÌýAnd what about sanctions? There’s always a lot of talk about sanctions within the disabled community. There’s a lot of fear around them if you fail to turn up to a meeting with a job coach, fail to fill in a form, fail to appear like you’re looking for work. What are they going to do that’s different now with the sanctions process?

MICHAEL-Ìý Ìý Well, what the chancellor said is they wanted to apply sanctions more rigorously. And what that will mean in practice is that they are going to start using artificial intelligence in order to almost automatically apply sanctions if people don’t do what the conditions on their benefit are. And I think what that will mean is they’ll probably remove some of the discretion that the work coaches and people in Job Centres have in applying a lot of those sanctions. They will move to almost a more automated way of sanctioning people. It’s worth bearing in mind that sanctions levels, certainly in universal credit at the moment, are at near record levels anyway. And most of the academic literature suggests they do not work in terms of moving people from benefits and into work.

EMMA-Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý ÌýTo me as a disabled person that sounds scary because we don’t really know what they mean by AI, do we? We don’t know what they’re going to use and how they’re going to implement that.

MICHAEL-Ìý Ìý No, we don’t. The devil in that case will absolutely be in the detail. But I think, as many people know, in order to comply with the rules of a particular benefit you have to do this, you have to do that and you have to do the other thing. So, for instance if you don’t turn up for a Job Centre appointment they might just say, well that’s one tick against you; whilst perhaps previously you could phone up your job coach and say, look the reason I didn’t turn up was because of A, B and C. and maybe the job coach would look favourably or kindly on you and may not mark that against you. If you go to a more automated system it becomes harder to have those human interactions. But, as I say, they haven’t outlined the detail of that yet.

Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý ÌýI think in terms of moving people into work, and remember this was a budget all about trying to get more people into the workplace, they are putting a lot of effort and a lot of money into sitting down with people who want to move into work. So, for instance one of the reasons they are changing the work capability assessment is they’ve done some research themselves which suggests that about one in five people who get that health top-up at the moment would be interested in moving into a job perhaps part time if the right opportunity came up. So, there’s two ways of looking at that stat: you can say that 80% of people can’t and don’t believe they can work, but they’re focusing on the 20% who might be able to work. And they’re trying to introduce very personalised things there in terms of universal support, a voluntary system where people will be able to try and move into the work with appropriate support. So, there is, as there’s always in benefits, there are carrots and sticks.

EMMA-Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý ÌýMichael Buchanan, thank you so much. I do feel like I understand it a bit better. But it’s so complicated. Will you come back again as these plans roll out and help us muddle through?

MICHAEL-Ìý Ìý Absolutely.

EMMA-Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý ÌýThank you.

In this next section we’re going to talk about themes around sexual assault, so if this isn’t something that you feel you can listen to right now skip forward about seven minutes and then come back to us, please. So, we are going to talk about a really important documentary that was on Â鶹Éç One this week, it’s still on Â鶹Éç iPlayer, and it’s by Christine McGuiness who is a TV personality and an autism campaigner. She was diagnosed as autistic a year ago after her children were found to be autistic as well. Here to chat about the documentary is Carly Jones. You’re really welcome Carly.

CARLY-Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý Thank you so much for inviting me to talk about this.

EMMA-Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý ÌýIt could have been made about you, Carly, couldn’t it? Tell us a bit about your story.

CARLY-Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý I was diagnosed at 32 years of age after two of my daughters were diagnosed as being autistic. So, there was a great relief in having an answer for why I found life challenging. But there was also a huge wave of fear, that fear that this would kind of be a generational curse if you like, the vulnerability. I was incredibly worried about my girls because I know how difficult life was before diagnosis, be that in education, be that in relationships, friendships. And hearing Christine’s story really resonated with me, and I’m sure the entire autistic community. We know that autistic people are incredibly vulnerable, particularly to sexual assault. For that to be in the mainstream media I’m sure is going to help so many people.

EMMA-Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý ÌýLet’s hear Christine talking about that now.

CHRISTINE- [Clip] Before Patrick I had been sexually abused. I was raped. I used to pray – and it’s sad now when I think about it – I’d pray every night that I wouldn’t wake up in the morning. [End of clip]

EMMA-Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý ÌýIt really looked from that clip like she’d never said those things before, didn’t it, Carly?

CARLY-Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý You could really tell by the way Christine said it that it was potentially one of the first times the words had kind of passed her lips. And it’s unfortunately a very tragic life trajectory for so many autistic women. Back in 2016 I think it was I spoke at the United Nations, and I didn’t want to just talk about my own life experiences, I wanted to talk about other autistic women’s life experiences. And only last September I was in Scotland helping with gender based violence and autism conference and one of the domestic violence services there said for every ten women they have in their care that nine of them are autistic. And that’s not a domestic violence service just for autistic women; it’s just an open service.

EMMA-Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý ÌýWhy do you think autistic women tend to be more vulnerable to sexual assault?

CARLY-Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý I think part of our diagnostic criteria is social imagination, so foreseeing consequence in a social situation. Of course that doesn’t make it all our fault, but it can be very challenging to understand somebody’s agendas for us or what could happen next in a social situation.

EMMA-Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý ÌýAnd what people’s intentions are?

CARLY-Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý Yes. And if you are surrounded your whole life by very nice people with good intentions that’s not going to be as much of a challenge. But we know that the world isn’t full of very nice people with good intentions, so we’re incredibly vulnerable to those. There’s also a lot of difficulty in being able to report abuse timely, due to kind of thinking is what happened to me wrong, first of all, and who can help me, and once I’ve asked someone for help what’s the consequence of that, the social imagination, what is the consequence. And the consequence hopefully is that you get some support and help and the abuse stops. But that’s incredibly challenging for autistic women. The minute I have to mask around someone else it’s almost like I’m on remote control.

EMMA-Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý ÌýCould you explain masking for people and how that shows up for autistic women?

CARLY-Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý So, masking is autistic women and men, but it’s more commonly known for women to mask: that we will observe a situation or research a situation before we turn up, and that kind of physical masking as well perhaps, having hair styled differently, different makeup. My old wardrobe prior to diagnosis looked a bit like a backstage theatre costume department: it was just outfits for all the different people I needed to be. I get, when I’m excited, I really flap my hands. In meetings I’ll sit on my hands for quite a long time to kind of cover that up. I tend not to now because everyone knows I’m autistic, but still sometimes. And it’s not a way for us to lie or defraud or fake it, it’s purely to survive because we realise how vulnerable we can be when we show our authentic autistic self. It’s a survival mechanism. And it’s exhausting and it has serious consequences on our mental health.

EMMA-Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý ÌýSo, one of the places where it felt like Christine in the documentary had to mask less was when she was with a bunch of fellow autistic mums with autistic kids.

FEMALE 1- [Clip] My youngest child’s first words were recalculating. [Laughter]

FEMALE 2-Ìý Ìý Ìý That’s awesome.

CHRISTINE- Meeting all the other autistic women and girls that I’ve met and seeing that they were just like me I didn’t feel like I needed to fit in or try or pretend because I just instantly did. I was just like them and that was the first time in my life. That’s the best thing I’ve probably got out of this: full acceptance for myself. [End of clip]

EMMA-Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý ÌýThat’s so powerful, isn’t it? Is that how you feel when you’re with other autistic mums as well?

CARLY-Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý Yeah. The only way I can describe it how it feels – I never thought I could have friendships with girls, I always had friendships with boys because they’re a lot more straightforward, they don’t tend to talk behind your back and all this kind of stuff – and it was when I met other autistic women that it was like I’d been living my whole life walking around in really high stilettos, and all of a sudden I’d come home and put some UGG boots or some slippers on. It was that comfort level, and you can just completely be yourself, and it’s the most beautiful feeling. And it saddens me that I had to wait 32 years to experience that. It’s wonderful, wonderful to see Christine stepping in to her authentic autistic self. I’m sure the whole autistic community are right behind her.

EMMA-Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý ÌýThank you so much, Carly Jones, for joining me to chat through the documentary, Christine McGuiness, Unmasking My Autism. And that’s on iPlayer now.

CARLY-Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý Thank you so much.

EMMA-Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý[Blue Peter theme tune] Such an iconic theme. Of course that’s Blue Peter. And with me now is Blue Peter’s 42nd presenter, and she’s disabled, she’s one of us, it’s Abby Cook! You’re so welcome, Abby.

ABBY-Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý ÌýThank you for having me on the podcast. How awesome.

EMMA-Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý ÌýI’m very excited because you’re from Falkirk in Scotland, which isn’t far from where I live in Fife. And you’re so young, you’re 20, into the wheelchair racing. First of all, you just started last week and you got such a great intro. Let’s hear that:

MALE-Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý[Clip] BP fans, please welcome to the studio:

FEMALE-Ìý Ìý Ìý The newest member of the team:

MALE-Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý ÌýBlue Peter presenter number 42:

FEMALE-Ìý Ìý Ìý Abby Cook! [End of clip]

EMMA-Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý ÌýWoo-hoo. I’m getting excited just listening to that. What was it like being in the studio with there’s an audience now? I think last time I watched Blue Peter it was really quiet and gentle.

ABBY-Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý ÌýIt is incredible. It’s a full sensory experience. It’s very loud. You’ve got obviously all the audience around which give you so much energy. For my entrance I had pyrotechnics behind me. So, they gave me a spot to sit on and they were like, right do not move from here, health and safety, we’ve got like fire going on behind you. So, that was really awesome. And also I had really cool music going on. So, it was a very cool first entrance for my first show.

EMMA-Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý ÌýTell me about the studio and the dressing rooms and everything, did they put any adjustments in place for you? Because you’re a wheelchair user, right?Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý

ABBY-Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý ÌýYes, I am. So, they did the most amazing thing. They have this thing, the rostra, where they all sit. So, Henry, the dog, his favourite place is to sit on the sofa on the rostra. And so it has two steps up to it, which made it a little bit tricky for me to get up. So, what they did was they made this incredible ramp that went round; it actually looks very integrated into the studio. I’m not going to lie, during the rehearsals I just go up and down it. I find it very fun. I like to go a bit fast. But a lot of it was already quite accessible. Everything is usually on the one floor. And usually I’ll just bring a blanket and then if I get a bit tired I’ll go for a nap during rehearsals.

EMMA-Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý ÌýOh, that’s good you’re able to do that. Because we’ve talked to Amy in Strictly who’s got Crohn’s, we’ve talked to other people and that’s one of the adjustments they’ve talked about is just being told that you don’t need to be at places where you’re not essential if you need a rest.

ABBY-Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý ÌýYes exactly. They usually find me a little quiet room and I went for a little nap in the middle of my first show day.

EMMA-Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý ÌýIs there much pressure behind being the first I’m going to say visibly disabled presenter?

ABBY-Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý ÌýI don’t really think so. I think I’m kind of just me. I don’t really over-think it too much. And also, as you say, visibly disabled, because you never know, there are a lot of hidden disabilities as well. But I guess it just adds another aspect to the show really. Blue Peter have already been very inclusive. I would say with the choice of presenters they have it’s been very, very diverse. And also they’ve been doing things like sit skiing for bits and following people from different walks of life.

EMMA-Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý ÌýSo, they were quite diverse anyway before you came along?

ABBY-Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý ÌýYeah.

EMMA-Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý ÌýSo, you didn’t feel like I’m the diversity bit or anything like that?

ABBY-Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý ÌýNo.

EMMA-Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý ÌýNow, I’m going to sound like a taxi driver when I ask this question because that’s who mostly asks me this question: have you always been disabled, Abby?

ABBY-Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý ÌýYes. I have a condition called Ehlers-Danlos syndrome. It causes just a whole host of different conditions as well. I’m not going to go through the entire list of them. But I’ve always had it since I was born, because it’s a genetic condition. It just got kind of worse as I got older and now I use a wheelchair. I can still walk around a little bit, but generally if I’m going for longer distances I will get a lot of pain fatigue and it becomes quite difficult, so I use a wheelchair for that. And I’ve got a little power pack that goes on the back of my manual chair and connects to a little watch, I double tap it and then I go off. So, it helps me manage my energy levels as well. A lot of people think that wheelchairs are a bad thing, but for me it’s my independence. It means that I can actually get out on days I’m in a lot of pain or have a lot of dislocations.

EMMA-Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý ÌýSo, to be clear, with Ehlers-Danlos syndrome your actual joints dislocate. I just don’t think people actually realise that that happens to people on a regular basis and they have to just get on with it. So, you said that it got worse in your teens. I read that you had to take two years off school. Can you tell me a bit more about that?

ABBY-Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý ÌýYeah, it was a difficult time. It gave me a lot of determination because I missed two years of school. But I then went back to school and I did two years after that. It’s definitely been frustrating. All the experiences that you have earlier in life and things when it’s maybe a bit tricky it does give you a lot of ways to adapt to things. I think people with disabilities are the most adaptive people ever. The solutions that they will come up with just to get round an inaccessible environment.

EMMA-Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý ÌýWhat’s your favourite one that you’ve come up with, do you think?

ABBY-Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý ÌýMy favourite one: reaching the top shelf of a shop if I’m feeling very frail and I can’t stand up, I sit on my wheel and it gives me an extra three or four inches of height, so I can reach the top shelf. You wouldn’t think to sit on your own wheel to get a ketchup bottle.

EMMA-Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý ÌýThat’s good, yeah, absolutely. Tell me about when you went back to school, did sport come soon after? Because you’re really very sporty and very passionate about sport, aren’t you?

ABBY-Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý ÌýYeah, definitely, very passionate about sport. I used to be a competitive swimmer. Unfortunately I don’t really do that all that much now because the level of trainingÌý that it requires is quite a lot, and too much for my body to handle at the moment. But my PE it was maybe a little bit lacking; they didn’t quite know all the different adaptive sports that they could do. So, I really wanted to find something that I could do that wasn’t what everybody else was doing. I couldn’t unfortunately at that point do things like hockey, so a lot of the time they would get me to referee instead, which I didn’t really like. So, I found a local wheelchair racing club that was quite close to me, and I started going there. They took a chance on me and they were like, you know what, we don’t have a wheelchair racer here, we’re a disability specific athletics club so what we can do, we can try it. So, they took a chance and then I started wheelchair racing. And I did that since I was about 16. I do it for the social aspects, the positive effect that it has on my mental health.

EMMA-Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý ÌýYes, I was going to ask you about that, because you kind of made that into your career, didn’t you, helping people get into sport for mental health reasons?

ABBY-Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý ÌýYeah, definitely. I definitely just kind of fell into that. I’ve been through a lot of different careers in my 20 years surprisingly.

EMMA-Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý ÌýReally?

ABBY-Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý ÌýYeah. There have been quite a few.

EMMA-Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý ÌýLike what?

ABBY-Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý ÌýI started working with Disability Sport getting disabled and non-disabled participants into kind of just physical activity, fun physical activity that’s not just a prescriptive sport.

EMMA-Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý ÌýAbseiling activities?

ABBY-Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý[Laughs] That came later.

EMMA-Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý ÌýOr not? Because your first challenge as a Blue Peter presenter, in fact it was to get your badge, was to do something that scared you quite a lot. What was that?

ABBY-Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý ÌýWell, you have to say what you’re scared of, the Blue Peter music, what’s your greatest fear? So, I said I’m really scared of heights, and I was really scared of open water. And they said, perfect, let’s get you abseiling 30m down over a viaduct, over a riverbed.

FEMALE-Ìý Ìý Ìý [Clip] Keep lowering yourself down. I’m going to lock you off now.

ABBY-Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý ÌýOkay, yeah please do. Oh no. Argh! [End of clip]

Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý ÌýThe presenters have to earn their first badge. They’re not just given it. And what they didn’t show is the fact that they put me on a safety hook and they said, don’t worry, you can take both your hands off the rope. You can take both your hands off the rope and you can collect this blue Peter badge that was dangling down beside me. And I said, ‘No way! No way am I taking two hands off the rope!’ I took the Blue Peter badge off with my teeth, like an absolute savage. I don’t think that quite made the edit. But I was very glad when I got back down to the bottom.

EMMA-Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý ÌýWould you do it again? No?

ABBY-Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý ÌýFor the badge. For the badge I would do it again.

EMMA-Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý ÌýWell, Abby, I’m very excited to keep watching you on Fridays on Blue Peter. You’re back on 17 March, which is in fact going to be called Red Peter because it’s Red Nose Day on the 17th.

ABBY-Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý ÌýYeah, definitely, for the first time in 65 years they are changing their name to Red.

EMMA-Ìý Ìý Ìý Ìý ÌýAbsolutely glorious getting to know you. Thank you so much, Abby Cook.

Thank you so much to Abby for joining us. A fantastic new disabled presenter on the scene. I’m not worried at all, not at all. Anyway, if you would like to get into sports and media, particularly behind the camera, the Â鶹Éç has an open day in Media City in Salford. If you or someone you know wants to know more or get involved go to our Twitter feed @Â鶹ÉçAccessAll. If you want to get in touch with us here on Access All you can send us a voice message or a text message to our WhatsApp, which is 0330 123 9480. Or you can tweet us @Â鶹ÉçAccessAll, or you can email us accessall@bbc.co.uk. Thanks for listening. Bye.

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