麻豆社

This is a full transcript of 1800 Seconds on Autism: 鈥淎ll colour-coded and catalogued in my brain鈥�, as released on 9 April 2020 and presented by Robyn Steward and Jamie Knight.

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[Jingle: 麻豆社 Sounds: music, radio, podcasts. 1800 Seconds on Autism, with Robyn Steward and Jamie Knight.]

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DARA - I don鈥檛 really measure my energy. I hit the point where I drop off the cliff, but I never see the cliff coming.

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JAMIE - I鈥檝e just realised that I think the air conditioning vents on the wall actually spell out 麻豆社 if you get them from the right angle, and therefore I can鈥檛 remember what we鈥檙e talking about.

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DARA - And then I went to secondary school and people seemed to hate me because you couldn鈥檛 shut me up about how, because of the amount of gravitational pressure around the neutron star, all of the electrons fused with the protons to turn them into a neutron, which then means that you have the entire neutron star is basically like a single atom core with billions of neutrons inside it and then鈥�

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JAMIE - Do you know about the conservation of angular momentum and that鈥檚 why they spin?

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DARA - Yes.

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[Music]

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ROBYN - Hello. This is 1800 Seconds on Autism, a podcast with two autistic presenters and an intense interest in, well, autism. I鈥檓 Robyn Steward.

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JAMIE - And I鈥檓 Jamie Knight. This introduction was recorded remotely due to the coronavirus restrictions so it might sound a bit different to the rest of the episode. Our guest this time is Dara McAnulty. He鈥檚 15 years old and has intense interests in birds and black holes and writes and speaks about nature and the environment.

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ROBYN - Before we get to our checklist designed by our new producer, Emma, to figure out how we鈥檙e doing, let鈥檚 listen to Jamie getting distracted by the patterns on the studio wall.

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[Music]

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JAMIE - I鈥檝e just realised that all of the wall cladding is symmetrical apart from one. It鈥檚 really annoying. They鈥檝e got a lovely pattern going apart from the left-hand corner. Hey Dara.

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DARA - Hi.

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ROBYN - So, Dara鈥檚 down the line, which means that he鈥檚 sat in a studio that isn鈥檛 this one. You the audience you鈥檙e listening from wherever you are. So, let鈥檚 describe who鈥檚 in the studio with us: there鈥檚 Lion.

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JAMIE - Roar!

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ROBYN - And Henry, the support bat, and I鈥檓 in a play at the moment and Henry鈥檚 become quite a key person or key bat within this production, and so we decided that he鈥檇 need a stunt bat. But Harry is here to do on-the-job training, so he鈥檚 shadowing Henry to learn what being a support bat is. And we鈥檝e got Emma, our producer.

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EMMA - Hello.

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JAMIE - For some reason all of our producers have been blind. I鈥檓 not sure why; maybe it鈥檚 something we said.

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EMMA - It鈥檚 something to do with eye contact, right?

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JAMIE - Oh yeah, that鈥檚 brilliant.

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DARA - Oh-ho.

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JAMIE - Yeah, we can鈥檛 do eye contact if you can鈥檛 see us.

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ROBYN - And then Jamie鈥檚 support person, Ed.

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ED - Hello.

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JAMIE - And he鈥檚 here to make sure I don鈥檛 catch fire basically, and make sure I get here and home safely without getting too run over. Dara, is there anybody at your end?

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DARA - I have the muted invisible mother who shall not speak. [Laughter]

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ROBYN - That鈥檚 your mum?

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JAMIE - She can giggle, by the sounds of things.

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DARA - Yeah.

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ROBYN - At the start of every recording from now on we鈥檒l be taking stock 鈥� that鈥檚 the producer鈥檚 words, not mine. What it means is we鈥檒l talk about how we鈥檙e doing. And we鈥檝e got a checklist, so I鈥檓 going to go through the checklist all the way through and then we鈥檒l talk about each item. So here are the things: there are spoons, which is a measurement of energy; stims, which are repetitive movements; and intense interests, things that we think about a lot.

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JAMIE - The script then says that I need to say how I am today in spoons. I鈥檓 pretty good. I collapsed the other day and hurt my arm, and I鈥檓 currently on codeine and caffeine, which is brilliant. I鈥檓 high as a kite, which is really quite fun and bouncy. The next question was I need to ask Robyn how her spoons are today. How are your spoons today, Robyn?

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ROBYN - Well, I don鈥檛 always measure my energy in spoons so I don鈥檛 really know. But I鈥檝e got Henry and Harry so I鈥檓 happy.

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JAMIE - Awesome. Dara, do you use spoons? How do you measure your energy?

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DARA - I don鈥檛 really measure my energy. I kind of like hit the point where I kind of like drop off the cliff, but I, like, never see the cliff coming, so.

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JAMIE - I used to be like that. The way that it worked for me was I kind of had to make my days really repeatable, and then I could start predicting where that little energy cliff would be. And then I started slowly adding more variation back into my life, but then I could always use my routine as almost like a metronome.

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DARA - Ah okay.

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JAMIE - And then I could add a bit more or take a bit away, depending on how it鈥檚 going. I sometimes call it pacing, which is working out how I get to the end of the day.

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ROBYN - How about stims? My current stims are that I鈥檝e got all of my fingers, and then one moving my feet backwards and forwards, shifting my weight between my feet. Jamie, have you got any stims?

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JAMIE - My normal rocking, bouncing. I鈥檓 currently fiddling with this little jack from one of the headphones because it鈥檚 made of plastic on one end, which is like really soft and grippy, and really smooth metal on the other end, and it鈥檚 kind of really nice to run your fingers across the little transition between the two. I keep wanting to lick it, but I think I鈥檒l get told off for doing that, so I鈥檒l wait till everyone鈥檚 distracted and then I鈥檒l lick it. [Laughter]

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EMMA - Don鈥檛 lick it!

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JAMIE - Oh, the more you tell me not to lick it the more it鈥檚 going to get licked. It鈥檚 like a button that says do not press this button, you know, it鈥檚 just oh god, I need to press the button now.

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ROBYN - Do lick it, but make sure that you give it a bit of a wash afterwards.

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JAMIE - Will do. I鈥檒l just wipe it on my t-shirt. Also it鈥檚 not plugged into anything; I did check. Have we got distracted, Emma?

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EMMA - Yes.

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ROBYN - Dara, do you have any stims?

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DARA - Well, I like fiddling around with cards, but at the moment I don鈥檛 have any cards, which is a bit annoying, so I鈥檓 just fiddling around with a pen.

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EMMA - And will you be okay without them?

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DARA - I鈥檒l be fine. I鈥檝e got a pen.

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JAMIE - What sort of pen?

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DARA - I鈥檓 not entirely sure. It was the only one in the office. It鈥檚 kind of like a biro, ballpoint.

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ROBYN - It doesn鈥檛 even have a clicky bit.

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DARA - I know. Really annoying. It鈥檚 got a lid though.

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ROBYN - Well, what about some Blu Tack, would that be good? I bet they have Blu Tack at the 麻豆社, right Emma?

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EMMA - Yes. If you need further items to fidget with you just let us know and we will sort it out.

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ROBYN - It鈥檚 really not a problem.

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JAMIE - No. You know we鈥檝e got like a stationery cupboard full of pens and stuff; we should have a fidget cupboard full of Blu Tack and cool things.

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ROBYN - That鈥檚 a good idea for Robyn鈥檚 Rocket.

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JAMIE - Another one for your event.

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ROBYN - Yeah.

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JAMIE - Robyn鈥檚 Rocket. Oh, we were about to talk about intense interests, weren鈥檛 we? Hey Robyn, what are you up to at the moment?

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ROBYN - Well, so I have a few. One is about self-employment for autistic people. Another is this thing called Robyn鈥檚 Rocket. And in our production meeting when we were talking with Emma, Emma was like, 鈥淲ell that鈥檚 just putting on an event鈥�. But then she realised, oh no, the level of detail I go to. And then we started having a conversation about ear defenders.

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JAMIE - Oh, I do love a good set of ear defenders.

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ROBYN - Yeah. So, we were talking and I asked you what鈥檚 the biggest reduction, and you said, 90 decibels.

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JAMIE - 90 to 60.

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ROBYN - 90 to 60.

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JAMIE - Which is 30 decibels.

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EMMA- Hang on, we鈥檙e going to deal with that in another show that you鈥檙e doing.

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JAMIE - Oh. So, Robyn, tell us about Robyn鈥檚 Rocket. It sounds really cool.

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ROBYN - Well so, Robyn鈥檚 Rocket is an inclusive conscious series of gigs, and by inclusive conscious I mean we think about inclusivity, but I appreciate that, like it鈥檚 experimental left-field music, so definitely it鈥檚 not going to be for everybody. But also that we don鈥檛 turn the volume down, I mean we don鈥檛 turn it up an extra amount either, and we have a sort of psychedelic live drawing light show on the walls and the ceiling. But we do lend out ear defenders, we have earplugs, and you can wear earplugs and ear defenders at the same time. And we also have a range of sunglasses that people can borrow while they鈥檙e there. I wanted people to be able to understand what was going on without needing spoken or written English, and so every act has a shape and colour: there鈥檚 a red rectangle, a blue square, a orange triangle and a green circle. Those are in the right order on the timetable, and then they鈥檙e in the right order on the stage, and then they鈥檙e also on the merchandise table. How about you, Dara, what鈥檚 your current intense interest?

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DARA - This one has been going on for quite a while, like a year or two. So I set up this campaign to听 satellite tag birds of prey. Sadly we could not sat tag hen harriers because they鈥檙e a bit delicate and we didn鈥檛 want to cause the extinction of a species, which would be the exact opposite. So, we settled with red kites and buzzards, and it鈥檚 been absolutely amazing. I get to see a big map, and then on the map it鈥檚 got all the dots where each of the birds are, and then I get to watch as all the birds move across the map.

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JAMIE - Wow.

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ROBYN - This might be a good time to explain what monologuing is.

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DARA - Yeah.

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JAMIE - Oh, that鈥檚 when Jamie goes on about something for ages. He鈥檚 really good at that.

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ROBYN - Well, not just Jamie, anybody.

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DARA - I was in the Isle of Man once and I got to have the most fun of my life because I had the chance to just monologue for a solid 40 minutes. So..

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JAMIE - That鈥檚 basically what I do. When I do presentations I write some slides so I monologue in roughly the right direction.

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DARA - Yeah.

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JAMIE - And then I just go for a monologue, and people seem to like it. I鈥檓 like, 鈥淭his feels lovely. Do I have to stop?鈥�

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ROBYN - Monologuing is when a person talks about something without really pausing or asking questions. So, it鈥檚 not really a conversation; it鈥檚 more that they鈥檙e talking at you about something. Autistic people often talk at you about things they鈥檙e very positive about and interested in.

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JAMIE - Yeah.

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ROBYN - Or it might be, actually that鈥檚 wrong, because sometimes actually people do monologue about things that really upset them. So, I guess for some people I think it might be a way of processing information, like if you can talk a long time about something that鈥檚 worrying you it helps you to process it. Because sometimes I just ring my mum and I鈥檓 just like, 鈥渘o, I don鈥檛 need you to actually do anything other than just listen. You don鈥檛 have to solve the problem.鈥�

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JAMIE - Do you know there鈥檚 a name for that in software development: it鈥檚 called rubber-ducking, which is when you take a rubber duck and you literally say 鈥淚鈥檝e got this bug in my software, every time I do blah鈥�. And then halfway through you go, 鈥測es rubber duck, I know exactly what the problem is.鈥� And then you put the rubber duck away and then fix it.

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ROBYN - No, it鈥檚 slightly different to that because I really need my mum to let me know she鈥檚 listening. And sometimes she might have something useful, but it鈥檚 more that I haven鈥檛 rung up because I want an answer; I need to tell her because she鈥檚 my mum and she cares about me. And I might need to go in a lot of detail and nobody else really wants to listen to that apart from my mum.

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JAMIE - Oh, that鈥檚 a shame. I鈥檝e just realised that I think the air conditioning vents on the wall actually spell out 麻豆社 if you get them from the right angle, and therefore I can鈥檛 remember what we鈥檙e talking about.

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[Jingle: Send any questions or thoughts to stim@bbc.co.uk]

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ROBYN - So, Dara, could you tell us a bit about yourself, like maybe a bit about your family or how you found out you were autistic, that kind of thing?

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DARA - I am the eldest sibling, so I鈥檝e got a younger brother and a younger sister. All of us are autistic.

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JAMIE - Woo hoo.

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DARA - So, they saw I was autistic, then we were looking for it. So, I鈥檝e got my mum who鈥檚 also autistic, and then I鈥檝e got my dad who isn鈥檛 autistic, so he鈥檚 kind of the odd one out.

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JAMIE - I鈥檓 sure we can get him some sort of therapy to help him you know cope. Neurotypical people, they need all of our support and love in order to help them have awareness of their condition.

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DARA - Yes. [Laughter]

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ROBYN - And how old were you when you first knew you were autistic?

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DARA - I knew I was kind of different because I kind of got really, really excited about black holes and nobody really wanted to listen. I must have been five; I guess that鈥檚 quite early.

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ROBYN - Did your mum ever sit you down? Because my mum, when I was 12, she sat me down on her bed and she told me that I was autistic. So, did anyone ever tell you that you were autistic?

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DARA - That鈥檚 a funny thing, I can鈥檛 remember any important conversations, but I can remember throwing snowballs at my brother in 2010, so.

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JAMIE - I can鈥檛 remember a lot of the most important things in my life either, but I can remember weird things that sound insignificant for others.

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DARA - Yeah.

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JAMIE - I tend to remember stuff around strong positive emotions a lot better than strong negative ones.

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DARA - Yeah.

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JAMIE - So, I can remember my last bike ride; I can鈥檛 remember getting dressed this morning or what I鈥檝e eaten today. But things that really interest me will stick in my head and everything else just seems to fall out of my ears when I鈥檓 not paying attention.

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DARA - Yeah.

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JAMIE - Do you know what, I think it鈥檚 okay. This is one of the questions that the producer asked us, so I think we can move on to a more interesting one.听

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DARA - Oh yeah.

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JAMIE - I say a more interesting one, but this question is going to鈥�oh I know what my answer to this would be so I hope it鈥檚 not too bad. The question that the producer has written is: how has school been for you?

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DARA - Oh god.

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JAMIE - Please do not swear.

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DARA - [Laughter] So, in primary school I was bullied-ish. It wasn鈥檛 too bad. Then I went to secondary school and people seemed to hate me because you couldn鈥檛 shut me up about birds or black holes, or I went to secondary school and people seemed to hate me because you couldn鈥檛 shut me up about how, because of the amount of gravitational pressure around the neutron star, all of the electrons fused with the protons to turn them into a neutron, which then means that you have the entire neutron star is basically like a single atom core with billions of neutrons inside it and then鈥�

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JAMIE - Do you know about the conservation of angular momentum and that鈥檚 why they spin?

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DARA - Yes.

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JAMIE - Okay, that鈥檚 really cool. If you have something spinning and you make it smaller there has to be the same amount of spin in it. It鈥檚 like magic.

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DARA - Yeah, so therefore it must spin faster, yeah.

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JAMIE - Do you know about little green man one, LGM1?

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ROBYN - Hang on, though, Jamie.

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JAMIE - Sorry, I鈥檓 getting distracted.

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ROBYN - We鈥檙e supposed to be talking about鈥�

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JAMIE - Sorry, autism stuff, sorry.

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DARA - Oh yeah.

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ROBYN - But the question we were asking was鈥�

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JAMIE - How鈥檚 school?

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ROBYN - 鈥�about school, and then Dara was saying when you went to high school that people didn鈥檛 want to hear about neutron stars and birds.

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DARA - I was quite heavily bullied at that school, and I was starting to get really, really down and things were not going well. It was pretty horrible; I didn't have very many friends. But what really helped me was going out into nature and just sitting down in the middle of a forest and then I was going over all the things that had happened that day in my mind, all the things that the bullies had said, and when I was sitting in the forest I came up to this magnificent revelation. And it was: I care about nature and I don鈥檛 care about the bullies, and I think nature鈥檚 amazing but they don鈥檛. So therefore what they say is irrelevant to me because I don鈥檛 care about them but I care about nature. So, therefore nature is amazing and they are idiots, I guess.

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JAMIE - It鈥檚 sometimes very nice that when I鈥檓 around other autistic people I鈥檝e got a friend who鈥檚 an autistic engineer and we can spend hours talking about the intricacies of gearboxes because we both appreciate the amazing engineering behind it, how they鈥檙e built, how they work. Most people wouldn鈥檛 be interested. But I think that鈥檚 other people鈥檚 loss that they don鈥檛 see the wonder of the world around them because they鈥檙e so busy being neurotypicals and focused on social things like the status they get from wearing a certain type of watch.

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ROBYN - I got bullied a lot too, Dara, at school and what I can tell you is the rest of life is not like school.

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JAMIE - Yeah.

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ROBYN - I know that you鈥檝e got a few more years to go, but I got kicked out of school when I was 15 and I don鈥檛 have any GCSEs or anything, but life is much better for me and I have friends and people that care about me.

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JAMIE - Same.

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ROBYN - And sometimes the people that are doing the bullying, well as you know, sometimes it鈥檚 because they feel insecure. But also sometimes it鈥檚 that they 鈥� my mum is also autistic, like your mum, and I grew up knowing that there was nothing wrong with being autistic, I wasn鈥檛 ill or broken, I was different and that was totally fine.

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DARA - Yeah.

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ROBYN - And not everybody would understand. But I think because the bullies had never really had any education about disability or difference; when people don鈥檛 know something that sometimes when they鈥檙e a kid they鈥檙e very unkind. And those people they grow into adults, like I met somebody a few years ago who I bumped into him, well I didn鈥檛 actually literally bump into him, I saw him and he saw me at a train station and he apologised for bullying me when we were children. He said he did it because he was bored; so it had nothing to do with me whatsoever.

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JAMIE - One of the things I鈥檝e also learnt is when I was a kid people thought my peers were people who were the same age as me, and that鈥檚 just not the case. So, I have almost no friends who are my age; all of my friends are 10 or 12 years older than me. But they鈥檙e all at the same point in their careers or interests. I鈥檝e been a software engineer developer sort of person since I was nine, and all of my friends are that technical background, and weirdly they don鈥檛 care that I鈥檓 auti. In fact a lot of the things that make me.. make it hard for most people my age to understand me they understand from their younger brothers, younger sisters. They鈥檙e almost like grown-ups and I鈥檓 not. And actually we鈥檝e embraced that and gone, look I鈥檓 going to need help getting from A to B, but when your car breaks down you鈥檙e going to be really glad that I鈥檓 here because I can read the wiring diagram in the manual 鈥� stuff like that. So, they see my value in a different way and I don鈥檛 have to try and fit in; in fact I think I鈥檝e learnt that the more I embrace being me the better it goes for everybody.听

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EMMA - What you鈥檝e said is incredible and I鈥檓 almost crying here.

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ROBYN - Emma, why are you crying?

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EMMA - Because it鈥檚 so鈥�

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JAMIE - She鈥檚 become emotionally dysregulated.

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DARA - Yeah. [Laughter]

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EMMA- It鈥檚 because it鈥檚 so unusual to hear two autistic adults talking to an autistic teenager and telling him something immensely useful about what life might be like for them in the future, when life is not that easy just now. For me that鈥檚 exactly why we do this podcast. I don鈥檛 know if Dara feels like it, but it feels so helpful and important to hear those words. And that鈥檚 why I鈥檓 emotional because I feel like it鈥檚 something that I feel like it鈥檚 maybe something Dara needed to hear, or if Dara didn鈥檛 need to hear it other people listening will really, really, really appreciate it and need to hear that. Was that useful for you, Dara?

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DARA - Yeah, it was very useful for me. But at the moment I鈥檓 in a school where they鈥檙e all about as nerdy as me.

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JAMIE - Woo hoo!

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ROBYN - That鈥檚 good.

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DARA - So, for the first time ever I鈥檝e been put into the geek class.

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JAMIE - Yay!

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DARA - And now I can chat to them about how a computer works.

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JAMIE - It鈥檚 great, isn鈥檛 it?

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DARA - It鈥檚 amazing.

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[Jingle: Email stim@bbc.co.uk]

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ROBYN - One of the things that we have in our questions that Emma wrote for us is some people have called you the Irish Greta Thunberg. How do you feel about that?

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DARA - Well, it鈥檚 this sort of comparing that annoys me, because I was there two years before Greta Thunberg. I鈥檓 not Greta Thunberg in any which way possible. I experience the world a lot different to her. I express my message very differently. Her message is: the world is in danger, we all need to fight it; my message is more like: the world is beautiful so we need to protect it.

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JAMIE - There鈥檚 a really good distinction there by the way. So, you鈥檙e kind of doing education where she鈥檚 doing is kind of advocacy.

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ROBYN - But carry on, Dara, because what you鈥檙e saying is really interesting.

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JAMIE - Sorry.

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DARA - Okay, I just need to get my stride back up again.

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EMMA - It鈥檚 fine.

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DARA - Okay, I鈥檓 back.

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JAMIE - Sorry.

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DARA - I鈥檝e also had this big old philosophy of mine: I don鈥檛 really want to have someone to almost role model, because if I鈥檓 role modelling someone that means being someone else, and that is absolutely my biggest hate and biggest fear in the world is to be tied down to a certain area. I want to be like liquid and fluid, just running from one thing to the next with nobody ever being able to tell me what to do. And people can really see how that I could be really, really passionate about both physics and biology, and sometimes chemistry. I guess chemistry is cool as well.

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JAMIE - Chemistry is just like physics but with practice.

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DARA - Yeah, and sometimes biology as well.

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JAMIE - Yeah, biology is just chemistry with practice.

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DARA - Yeah.

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JAMIE - It鈥檚 all really just mathematics with practice.

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ROBYN - Could I just make a suggestion? And Jamie, if this isn鈥檛 helpful it鈥檚 totally okay to say it鈥檚 not helpful. But I think maybe it鈥檚 hard for you to know when Dara has finished, and maybe Emma might be able to like put your hand up when Dara is finished, that way you know.

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EMMA - Well actually, to be fair I don鈥檛 exactly know when Dara鈥檚 finished either, and I would not like to say that I know.

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ROBYN - But what you said was the rule was when Dara is being quiet for one to two seconds. That鈥檚 what you said.

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EMMA - If we鈥檙e going to do this as fair as possible how about if Dara says, I鈥檓 finished?

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ROBYN - Okay yeah.

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EMMA - How about that?

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ROBYN - That way Jamie he knows.

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EMMA - And we all know.

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ROBYN - Then we all know.

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EMMA - And Dara can say as much as he wants.

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ROBYN - Yeah.

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JAMIE - Isn鈥檛 this lovely, everyone else has decided a strategy to impose on me without asking me?

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ROBYN - No.

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EMMA - No, it鈥檚 not on you.

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ROBYN - No, we are asking you. What I said was if it鈥檚 okay with you, but it was just a suggestion.

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EMMA - Well we鈥檙e almost finished anyway.

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JAMIE - Can I make a different suggestion?

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EMMA - Yes.

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JAMIE - Dara, if I interrupt you just say, 鈥淣ot now Jamie鈥� and continue with your train of thought and I鈥檒l shut up.

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DARA - Okay.

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JAMIE - It鈥檚 all gone to one of them awkward silences.

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EMMA - No, I鈥檓 just looking at my script to see where we are.

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JAMIE - What鈥檚 your favourite joke?

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ROBYN - So, Emma was saying you do a field diary every day. So how does writing things down help you?

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DARA - So, when I鈥檓 outside and I鈥檓 experiencing something I don鈥檛 exactly experience it fully; it鈥檚 kind of all a bit muted because my brain is trying to say, oh my god, got all these masses amount of colours, and it doesn鈥檛 want me to process it all at once. If I did my brain would explode. So, then when I go home, instead of forgetting about it, I write it down and that allows me to almost relive the memories and then reprocess it. And it鈥檚 been catalogued, given its colour-coding and put into a certain folder, and that is that day鈥檚 memory. So, in that sense writing is really, really important to me because if I couldn鈥檛 write about what was happening to me and let鈥檚 say that Robyn came really, really close to me and it was an amazing experience, if I didn鈥檛 have that chance of writing something down then I wouldn鈥檛 process it properly and the entire experience would be lost. And I don鈥檛 want to lose experiences because I value generally nothing more than having an experience. Finished.

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ROBYN - And when you said about folders do you mean folders in your head or physical folders or folders on your computer?

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DARA - I guess I put my field diaries into folders, but I also folder it away in my brain. So I鈥檝e got a certain area of my brain is for nature, a certain area of my brain is for physics. And I need a sort of trigger: let鈥檚 say I might have like the triggers of a certain thing being a certain word, and then I hear this certain word, and then it opens up this whole memory in my brain and I鈥檒l go, oh my god I鈥檓 remembering all of this stuff that I鈥檝e completely forgotten about, but it鈥檚 still in there.

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JAMIE - If you could change one thing in your life at a click of your fingers what it would be and why?

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DARA - I would click my fingers and climate change would stop, and all of the biodiversity that was here, say let鈥檚 go back about 500 years, those were pretty good days 鈥� not socially of course, but from biodiversity terms they were amazing. We still had wolves in Ireland so that鈥檚 always a good sign.

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JAMIE - The sheep weren鈥檛 so happy about that. Sorry, I鈥檓 making a joke, ignore me.

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DARA - And I鈥檇 like everything to just come to a natural balance where all the ecosystems are working carefully and don鈥檛 have to take human management into them, which generally always goes wrong. Us humans don鈥檛 have the sort of mental capability to perceive how the natural world works because every single little string that connects up the entire world is so connected that removing one it can have completely unforeseen reactions throughout the entirety of the world. So, for example in Yellowstone they reintroduced wolves there and the entire landscape changed. The amount of deer went down which meant that more trees came up. And I think this just shows that us humans could only see, I鈥檇 say we see about four steps ahead, but nature has about 500. We鈥檝e got no real way of saying how that would have turned out, but I鈥檓 saying it would be definitely a lot better than the polar caps melting and wildfires going out across France and generally utter disaster. Finished.

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ROBYN - I want to say thank you so much, Dara, for coming to talk to us. We really appreciate it. And also to Jamie, I鈥檓 sorry if I offended you; I was just trying to help.

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JAMIE - I鈥檓 not offended at all. I鈥檓 just trying to keep the momentum going.

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DARA - Okay.

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JAMIE - And I know that I talk too much, but I can鈥檛 stop it. And when other people try and stop it it actually gets even harder for me because then I need to not stop the stopping. So, the best thing for me to normally do is if I am talking too much, rather than other people try and stop it, I鈥檒l make an agreement with the person that I鈥檓 interrupting that they are completely within their thing to go, 鈥淣ot now Jamie鈥� because that tends to disrupt the flow less.

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ROBYN - Thank you so much, Dara, it鈥檚 been a pleasure to talk to you. Best of luck with your book coming out and keep up the excellent work. And if you ever get bullied in the future, as my mum says, don鈥檛 let the bullies get you down.

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JAMIE - You鈥檙e epic. Keep being epic.

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ROBYN - We loved talking with Dara. He鈥檚 so clever and passionate, but also a typical teenager. Hopefully he found chatting with us autistic adults of some use.

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JAMIE - Dara鈥檚 book, Diary of a Lone Naturalist, is scheduled to be 麻豆社 Radio 4鈥檚 Book of the Week in May 2020 and will be available on 麻豆社 Sounds too.

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ROBYN - Please share this show with anybody you think might enjoy it. Subscribe to us on 麻豆社 Sounds or say to your smart speaker, 鈥渁sk the 麻豆社 for 1800 Seconds on Autism鈥�, and it鈥檒l play the most recent edition. The email address to get in touch is stim@bbc.co.uk, that鈥檚 s-t-i-m.

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JAMIE - We鈥檒l continue to record special short podcasts about how we鈥檙e coping with the coronavirus situation, so please let us know what you鈥檇 like to hear on those. We are sandwiching them between our regular podcasts so look out for them.

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ROBYN - I hope they鈥檙e jam sandwiches!

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JAMIE - Ooh, it鈥檚 a podcast sandwich, num, num, num.

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ROBYN - Dara is also a poet and before we leave you today we鈥檙e going to hear Dara to read out one of his poems. It鈥檚 interesting, it鈥檚 clearly about how we鈥檝e all destroyed the world and the nature he loves so much. Cheerio and here鈥檚 Dara.

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DARA - The Holocene Extinction?

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When we began our feet trod lightly

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Bare upon the earth we were weightless.

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Travelling, allowing resurgence and regrowth, leaving enough.

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Reverence.

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Forging through millennia, we kept on adding endless weight, leadening

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Heaviness, leaving deep and lasting indentations, sending shockwaves.

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Eliminating.

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Cruelty, cavernous greed, no impediment,

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Hands and feet becoming industrial. Monsters, spewing toxicity, sickening

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Deafening, echoing arrows.

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Piercing.

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Now, thundering, trampling boundlessly.

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Decimating pathways once bountiful.

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We watch helplessly, numb, aching

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Hollow haunting cries to empty spaces.

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Waiting.

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Stop. I hear hope, purposefully striding.

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Footsteps pleading, necessary action.

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Great minds whirring, channelling change

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Demanding respectfully our weight to lessen.

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We want birdsong, abundant fluttering, humming, no more poison, destruction.

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Growing for growth, it has to end.

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Will my generation see the rightful rising?

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[Jingle: That was 1800 Seconds on Autism.

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