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IN TOUCH – YouGov Poll on Employment

TX: Ìý13.02.2024Ìý 2040-2100

PRESENTER:Ìý ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý PETER WHITE

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PRODUCER:ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý BETH HEMMINGS

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White

Good evening.Ìý Strange thing to say for a journalist but tonight there is no story or rather that is the story that when it comes to blind and partially sighted people getting jobs the statistics have barely changed over the past six decades.Ìý We’re still talking about around only one in four visually impaired people of working age having a job and this despite equality legislation, countless campaigns, incentive schemes and, to be fair, government programmes like Access to Work which provide financial and human help with specialist equipment and in-work support.Ìý So, if nothing’s changed why are we looking at it again?Ìý Well, because a new YouGov poll of 2,000 businesses, commissioned by the All Party Parliamentary Group of Eye Health and Vision Impairment, suggests some of the reasons why there is so little progress.

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Marsha De Cordova, MP for Battersea and Chair of that all party group, is with us.Ìý Marsha, first of all, in a nutshell, what does the poll tell us?

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De Cordova

I mean essentially what it really confirms is that misconceptions about employing blind and partially sighted people still remain.Ìý We know that the disability employment gap remains at around 30% and has done so for more than a decade.Ìý And then when you’re looking at the pay gap, you know, again, disabled are working potentially up to 47 days every year for free because the pay gap is so broad.

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White

Now a key part of your report, though, the findings, were the fact that quite alarming numbers of employers, almost half, really didn’t accept that they should make accommodations, about one in four said they wouldn’t employ a blind person.

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De Cordova

I mean that was probably the most shocking, Peter.Ìý I mean we had, you know, nearly half of those said their recruitment processes were inaccessible.Ìý So, that’s a challenge in and of itself.Ìý You’ve already highlighted the issue around those being able to make those reasonable adjustments and adaptations when employing someone but I think also that we haven’t highlighted – more than third said they really wouldn’t know where to go and access that kind of practical support through schemes such as Access to Work.Ìý But I think, as you’ve highlighted, I think the shocking one for me was that, you know, a quarter said that they weren’t going to be able to employ somebody living with sight loss.Ìý I think that’s quite shocking.Ìý We’ve been in the sector for a number of years now, we need to shape and help to change those attitudes so that more people wanting to work can work.Ìý But also, when they are in work that they are supported.Ìý But I alluded to at the start is the misconceptions.Ìý And there was one stat that really concerned me was that many didn’t think that a blind and partially sighted person could use a computer – a quarter of them thought that frankly, which is quite shocking.

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White

Now we did contact the Federation of Small Businesses.Ìý They regretted they couldn’t provide a spokesperson for the programme but they did acknowledge that their own research confirmed that less than half of those questioned had heard of Access to Work and less than one in 20 had actually used it and they suggested that more publicity was needed for programmes like this.Ìý It’s fair to say, isn’t it, that it’s not just employer’ attitudes that’s causing the problem?

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De Cordova

Well, it certainly is but also, yes, it’s about raising awareness and so forth but there has to be proactivity as well.Ìý And the government can do more, of course they can do more.Ìý I always see Access to Work as probably the best kept secret because it is the most effective form of employment support, having been a user of it myself in the past.Ìý If more people knew about it, that would be fantastic but also it needs proper investment and the scheme needs to be administered properly as well.Ìý As you well know there are huge backlogs and delays to people getting the support they need.Ìý I really do hope that the FSB will actually submit written evidence to our inquiry.Ìý They’ve done their own research; they should be feeding into this process as well.

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White

Okay, well, we’ll be mentioning the inquiry at the end.Ìý We’re going to try yet again to tease out what can be done to improve this situation.

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With us we also have Martin °¿â€™K²¹²Ô±ð, RNIB’s Strategic Lead for Technology and Employment and Eleanor Southwood, who’s Director of Social Impact at the Vision Foundation, which is a funding organisation and it’s been doing a good deal of work in supporting visually impaired people into work.

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We had very much hoped that the new minister for disabled people, Mims Davies, would be with us but we’re told that it wasn’t possible to make it work with her diary.Ìý We will, though, be examining the statistics the department has provided for what they’ve been doing on this in a moment.Ìý

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But before that I want us to hear from Simon – Simon Hill – whose story illustrates a lot of the barriers that people like him are encountering.

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Simon, just initially, you had a job and had been doing it, I think, for around six years, what went wrong?

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Hill

I decided to apply for a change of role, passed the interview.Ìý The system that I needed to use wasn’t accessible with the JAWS screen reader that I used and there was a lengthy process with that having to be made accessible.Ìý Long story short, it took about 18 months to get it to a point where it was accessible for me to use.Ìý I then passed the internal tests to become a qualified mortgage advisor and then I went into work one day and was told that they were changing the way they processed applications, they said that I couldn’t continue in the role.

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White

So, after two years of trying to get it right, at the very point that you’d got it right, they changed it?

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Hill

Yeah, essentially, there was no discussion with myself, so I suggested several workarounds, I was suggesting solutions, I wasn’t just, you know, saying I haven’t got the answers but fix this because there are ways we can do this.Ìý So, I went down the legal route and essentially was told that even if I won the case at tribunal, which I was told that I probably would, that because of the way the law is structured at the moment that although the judge could recommend that the employer makes the changes they can’t force them to and the only way I can try and force them to, if they don’t do it within a certain period of time, is go to another tribunal.

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White

Okay, stay with us Simon.Ìý It is a long and complex story but that’s the essence of it.Ìý Let me bring in Martin °¿â€™K²¹²Ô±ð from the RNIB.Ìý You lead with the RNIB on technology and employment.Ìý Technology is often cited as a potential gamechanger in employment for visually impaired people, not in this case by the sound of it and in quite a lot of others we’ve heard about.

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°¿â€™K²¹²Ô±ð

Employers do have an obligation under Equality Act legislation to make adjustments in the workplace. There’s obviously been a real need for training here with the employer and a much greater awareness of sight loss which should have been addressed at the recruitment stage.Ìý There’s so many adjustments that can be put in place.Ìý And even where a system is not accessible, we would ask employers to work with the likes of RNIB to check accessibility, to try and make improvements and to be very flexible with an employee or a new person coming in to the organisation.Ìý But it’s just simply not acceptable for an employer to not in place any adjustments and to leave Simon in the very difficult situation that he’s been put in.

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White

But there are a lot of players in this situation, aren’t there?Ìý There are the employers, as you’ve said, quite often there is the Department of Work and Pensions because the whole issue of Access to Work and getting the right equipment comes up, there’s the computer and software companies, maybe yourselves and other charities if somebody’s helping.Ìý Is the issue just that you’re somehow not all managing to work together?

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°¿â€™K²¹²Ô±ð

There are so many different areas of support for an employer.Ìý If someone is starting a job, they can come to the RNIB for some initial assistance.Ìý Unfortunately, a lot of employers just don’t know about the support that’s out there to help people.Ìý We would urge employers – please don’t feel you’re on your own and that you need to be an expert in sight loss, you don’t, come to the RNIB ask for help.Ìý Employers need to ask for help.

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White

Now the minister for disabled people, just last week, launched a new disability action plan.Ìý Is there anything in there that will help with this?

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°¿â€™K²¹²Ô±ð

The Disability Action Plan, it’s good to have a plan and to outline some kind of short-term actions, so the government plans to put in place.Ìý To be honest, there’s some elements of the plan which are quite disappointing – there’s no actual direct reference in the Disability Action Plan in relation to employment.Ìý It does talk about helping businesses to make improvements for disabled people but there’s such a need for the government departments to make sure that whether they’ve got a plan in place or not, that everything is done to ensure that blind and partially sighted people are supported, to get more employment opportunities and to keep people who are in work and acquire sight loss to stay there.

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White

Well, just to bring us back to the people this most affects.Ìý There are many stories, like Simon’s, that we hear on this programme, here are just a few more examples of experiences that we’ve heard about over the last couple of years.

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Montage

Well basically I was kept waiting a year for reasonable adjustments to be made and constantly reassured that they were being made and then I was told that those adjustments couldn’t be made and that the job offer was being withdrawn as a result of that.

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So, I was made redundant and since then I applied for almost 2,000 jobs.Ìý I work in marketing and data, so my field was a little bit broad where I could apply for anything from social media all the way through to data analyst.Ìý But yeah, it took about 200 interviews.Ìý One of the interviews I got, I told them I was visually impaired and he actually laughed at me and hung the call up.Ìý I had one where there was two of us left, I disclosed my disability at that point and they called me the next day to say that somebody else was better suited but what they didn’t know I actually knew the candidate and I trained that person.

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White

That was Anne Harrard and before that Rhianna.

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Eleanor Southwood from the Vision Foundation, you’ve been listening to all that, what are your reactions to this, I mean what is missing in what people are being offered?

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Southwood

So, at the Vision Foundation our absolute priority, as a funder – so we support organisations who run really interesting innovative projects that we want to learn from, so we can see what works, gather better evidence. ÌýOur own research in 2021 was very similar in terms of the concerns that potential employers had, really looking at the sorts of barriers people were facing, starting way before somebody’s applying for a job, as well.Ìý So, we know that there is a chronic shortage of emotional support for people who are being told they’re losing their sight.Ìý Very often people will leave a job and so actually support to be reassured that it is possible to work and that there is a system and structure that will support somebody is super important.Ìý So, we have invested £350,000 across 10 projects looking at really practical things that can be done.Ìý So, for example, a mentoring scheme for young people.Ìý Lots of young people are sort of coming out of school or college really ill-equipped for the workforce of today…

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White

Well, that’s what I was going to ask you that – are people coming to these jobs with the right skillsets?

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Southwood

I mean a huge mix, as you’d expect.Ìý There is a huge amount of talent out there, lots of skill and experience.Ìý There is also, though, lots of people who have been let down perhaps by an education which hasn’t supported them to become as digitally competent as today’s workforce requires.Ìý People who feel very nervous about some of the social aspects of work and really need that one-to-one support to sort of increase their confidence about what it is to be in a workplace.

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White

I said the Department of Work and Pensions had given us a statement about what they were doing to try to improve this situation, I think it’s time we heard that.Ìý They say:

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Statement from the Department of Work and Pensions

This government has a strong track record of supporting disabled people with 2.2 million more disabled people in work than in 2013.Ìý Our new £2.5 billion Back to Work plan will support more 600,000 disabled people and those with long-term health conditions to overcome barriers to secure and to stay in work.Ìý Our flagship Disability Confidence Scheme can help businesses improve how they recruit, retain and develop disabled employees.Ìý And our recent occupational health consultation will help to ensure staff are offered the best possible support.

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I want to bring back Marsha De Cordova on this.Ìý I mean put like that you’d have to say that they were doing quite a lot, wouldn’t you?

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De Cordova

No, unfortunately, I wouldn’t be able to say that, Peter, because I think the evidence speaks for itself.Ìý We’ve just heard some real-life examples of what is happening to people within the labour market, so something isn’t quite working there, is it?Ìý But also, you know, we had a government publish a disability action plan that fails to be ambitious, in my view, in any way, it really doesn’t seek to tackle some of those burning injustices that disabled people continue to face, whether it’s around the cost of living, whether it’s around education or what we’re all talking about today, employment and the labour market.Ìý Schemes like Access to Work are vital and, unfortunately, people are still experiencing long delays with that.Ìý The government have spoken in that statement about their flagship Disability Confidence programme, you and I both know employers can have that accreditation and not employ a single disabled person.Ìý The fact that they’ve also downgraded the role of the minister for disabled people also speaks volumes.

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White

It is interesting and I want to put this to the panel, that though we made it clear that this discussion was on the In Touch programme and therefore would concentrate on visually impaired people, none of the statistics the department has given us there relate specifically to visual impairment and I’m just wondering how significant you would say that it is.Ìý Perhaps I can put that to Eleanor.

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Southwood

I think it’s hugely significant.Ìý There are unique experiences and barriers that people who are blind and visual impaired encounter.Ìý And I think having all disabilities grouped into one overarching statistic tells us nothing about actually how blind and visual impaired people are getting on.Ìý This isn’t the only area in which this is a significant challenge.Ìý We’ll be doing a lot of work at the moment on loneliness and isolation which is very linked to employment and being out of work and finding that really challenging.Ìý Again, the statistics are disabled people generally, so really until we understand exactly what the numbers are for blind and visually impaired people it’s pretty hard to really get under the skin of the issue.

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White

I’d like to go back to Simon Hill listening to this.Ìý I mean you’re at the sharp end of this.Ìý Based on what you’ve heard, what would most help you and other people perhaps you know in this situation?

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Hill

First of all, it’s absolutely correct that the Disability Confidence scheme is meaningless.Ìý I’ve been now – to finish off my story a bit – that was 2017, I ended up having to leave my job, signing a non-disclosure agreement, etc. etc.Ìý We’re now several years later, having applied to several different employers for different jobs.Ìý The first question I’ve been asked by a supposedly Disability Confident employer is well, you’re blind, how are you going to use a computer?Ìý So, really for me, at the centre of it all, it’s technology.Ìý A computer centre is at the centre of pretty much any job we will apply for and frankly any other adjustments are meaningless if the computer system doesn’t work for us.Ìý And just, at this moment, I was successful in being offered a job finally with the DWP themselves, last July and lo and behold, here we are, however many months later and I’m being told the system isn’t accessible and they’re talking to HR and that’s the DWP, so…

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White

Well, that is ironic.Ìý We’re almost out of time but I want to go back to Marsha De Cordova.Ìý You’re now launching an inquiry that is calling on the experiences of visually impaired people, businesses and some other organisations as well, what do you want to know from people specifically?

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De Cordova

The inquiry really aims to better understand the impact of some of these barriers and the attitudes are having on blind and partially sighted people and, obviously, looking at some of the policies and practices that are currently in place.Ìý I think one of the key elements of it, as well, and part of the aim is really to gather the solutions that employers, government and others can really look at in terms of how they can do better to improve their current practices.

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White

And how do people submit their experiences and how long do they have to do it?

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De Cordova

The inquiry’s open until Friday 15th March and they can submit and you can find out more information on our website which is eyehealthviappg.org.uk.Ìý If people are unable to access and do this online then they certainly can contact my office and we can arrange for somebody from the all party group to contact them.

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White

Can we give a number for that?

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De Cordova

Fine, yes it is public anyway, so it’s 0207 209 0209.Ìý But I’m sure you can share that information as well.

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White

Right, thank you very much.Ìý And there we’ll have to leave it.Ìý We haven’t solved the problem but we’ve tried to address it and see some of the ways it could be solved.

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Marsha De Cordova, Simon Hill, Eleanor Southwood and Martin °¿â€™K²¹²Ô±ð, thank you all very much indeed.

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We would also very much welcome people’s comments, experiences and suggestions, you can email intouch@bbc.co.uk, you can leave voice messages on 0161 8361338.Ìý And you can go to our website for more information, that’s bbc.co.uk/intouch.

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From me, Peter White, producer Beth Hemmings and studio managers Nat Stokes and Amy Brennan, goodbye.

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