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IN TOUCH – Music Special: The Female Edition

TX:Ìý 06.05.2023Ìý 2040-2100

PRESENTER:Ìý ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý PETER WHITE

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PRODUCER:ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý BETH HEMMINGS

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White

Good evening.Ìý

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Music

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Well, don’t say we don’t give you variety on this programme.Ìý Three artists, three women, three generations all with a visual impairment.Ìý Tonight, we’re going to be exploring their careers, telling their stories and, at a moment when the accusation of gender imbalance in the music industry has raised its head again, we’ll be asking what part having a disability plays in that, if any.

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But first, in the spirit of telling your own stories, can we have a very brief summing up from all of you of where you sit in the music business?

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Lachi

Hey all, it’s Lachi.Ìý I’m a recording and performing artist who specialises in dance music.Ìý I am also a Grammy’s board governor, that is part of the recording academy.Ìý And then I’m also founder and president of an organisation called RAMPD, recording artists and music professionals with disabilities.

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Leigh

Hello, I’m Denise Leigh, I’m a classical soprano and I came to prominence when I won a reality TV programme which was run by Channel 4 called Operatunity.Ìý I’ve just recently done some of the fringe events surrounding Eurovision.Ìý And I’m a patron of a charity called Music of Life which helps to find music placements for young adults who are musical gifted.Ìý It helps them into professional engagements in mainstream orchestras and choirs.

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Sirine

My name is Sirine.Ìý I am a singer and songwriter.Ìý I just recently left the BRIT School, which have had alumni’s such as Adele, Amy Winehouse.Ìý And then I’ll be attending the Institute of Contemporary Music and Performance.Ìý My life revolves around song writing, so I’m very much behind the scenes but, of course, I’ve also performed a fair share too.

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White

Okay.Ìý So, in the light of what sound like three highly successful careers, including the one that’s only just starting, why are we discussing barriers on this programme?Ìý Well certainly here in the UK, the suggestion is that festival line ups are still highly male dominated.Ìý Glastonbury, this year, has no female headliners, though they say they did have one but she pulled out.Ìý But more to the point, in a recent survey of more than a hundred UK festivals, only 20% of the headliners are women.Ìý That’s before we even touch on the question of disability.

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Lachi, as well as a singer songwriter and a producer, you’ve increasingly been a disability advocate, so what is the issue here, first in terms of women generally and then in respect of disability?

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Lachi

It is difficult to change the way folks find source and hire talent.Ìý A lot of booking agents, managers and advance teams, the way they’re set up is it’s so much easier to work with who you know and pick your friends, that’s historically true.Ìý However, when we look today at some of the metrics that folks use to populate some of these festivals and populate some of these concerts, they’ll use things like Spotify metrics.Ìý A whole nother conversation can be had about how those metrics are also biased towards males and the fact that it’s algorithmic.

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White

But let’s have the conversation about disability as well.Ìý Why should that be an additional problem, after all you’re all singers, you should just be judged on your voices surely?

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Sirine

Yeah, but we’re not.

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Lachi

Yeah, you would think so.Ìý There are so many levels of issue.Ìý Starting from a – accessibility, bookers being afraid to get it wrong and not knowing how it looks if they get it right, so they don’t want to try and they’ll afraid it may be expensive or costly.Ìý Secondly – disability culture.Ìý Folks not seeing disability on stages, so not believing that it belongs there.Ìý And then thirdly is inclusion, sort of representation.Ìý So, not only are we trying to be visible on the stages, why don’t we have more agents with disabilities, managers with disabilities, folks who work at labels and festivals and touring agencies with disabilities?

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White

And on the issue of agents and agencies, I think, Denise, you’ve certainly been involved, haven’t you, in an agency trying to give more opportunities to women?

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Leigh

Yes, definitely.Ìý It was an all-female team and they represented women.Ìý That was such a refreshing change because I didn’t have to have that conversation initially with a man, you know, about why I was right for this recital.Ìý However, as you get older, and that’s another conversation, it does get harder to get parts because there’s just not the parts written for a 50-year-old soprano.

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White

I’m going to do a very sharp hands turn now because you’ve just raised the issue of age, but I want to go Sirine, who’s…

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Sirine

Eighteen.

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White

Eighteen now… just 18.Ìý

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Sirine

Yes.

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White

I mean you’re just starting out and you’re listening to this, like Denise, you hit the headlines with a high-profile TV talent contest in 2020 – Britain’s Got Talent – what was your experience of that?Ìý Your blindness may have even been something which was attractive to the audience in a way, maybe that was part of your success?

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Sirine

I did for a time think that until I started to meet people who genuinely could not speak other than about my music.Ìý Like my blindness would never sort of be a question or a conversation.Ìý Of course, there’d be people who are curious but, generally, I’ve never seen comments who talked of my blindness or any sort of thing.Ìý Of course, I’m sure it played some sort of role, because, you know, being blind is a new idea to a lot of people who don’t know much about blindness.Ìý I also, currently, have a mentor, who’s blind and his name is Robin Miller, sort of just seeing how he gets treated and I don’t know, seeing his story and sort of reflecting it against mine.Ìý Sometimes I don’t really see this whole blindness thing as a disadvantage in some ways.

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White

Well, let me go back to Lachi on that.Ìý I mean do you draw any comfort from that, are we seeing a new generation who are part of a new attitude?

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Lachi

It’s interesting.Ìý I know that when I first came into the industry in about 2015, when I really got active, I didn’t mention my blindness because I’m partially sighted, so I did what I could to just hide it or not talk about it.Ìý And because I did that no one seemed to really give it a second thought and I was able to propel my career pretty quickly, get signed, get a manager, begin to tour.Ìý And it wasn’t really until 2020 that I decided, you know what, I want to give back because I want to make sure that other folks with disabilities that maybe having some issues are proud to talk about their disability and have no issue with it.Ìý And it wasn’t until I did that, that I began to see that while things were going great for me, a lot of other people were struggling.Ìý Similar to some of the folks here on this call can find success on television, allowing a big wide audience to be able to see them very quickly.Ìý However, not everyone has that opportunity and will have to rely on being able to get the proper tools, training and education, that’s often just not there for folks with disabilities.

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White

I heard an intake of breath from Denise, at least I think it was your intake of breath, and I’m just wondering whether what Lachi’s just said resonates with you?

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Leigh

I had to really resist the blind since birth label because it’s oversimplifying things anyway, I’ve not been blind since birth but it’s just so easy to use that label.Ìý And, to be honest, I was quite resistant to it because I didn’t want to be marketed as a blind singer, I did not want to be the plucky blind girl who got on stage in spite of being blind, I didn’t think that would be helpful to other disabled potential musicians and artists.

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White

Well, it’s interesting in a way because, in a sense, if you do that, you’re trying to have it both ways, aren’t you, you’re trying to say I don’t want to be treated as special but we’re also saying it – yeah, but actually sometimes you need special facilities, you might need someone to help you on stage, you might need someone to show you round the place.Ìý Can you actually have it both ways?

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Leigh

I mean I know that every director I’ve ever worked with, I’ve always been the first disabled person they’ve ever worked with.Ìý So, there’s a lot of fear surrounding that and a lot of preconceived ideas.Ìý So, you go in and you spend the first couple of days just dispelling fear and saying – look, this is what would make things easier for me personally – you know, because when I’m on the stage, I might be better equipped, as a blind person, than someone who is on the stage not able to use their glasses because they’re extremely long or short sighted and I might be better equipped with coping strategies.Ìý So, accessibility helps everyone, not just me.

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Sirine

I’m as blind as I think you can get, so I used to be able to see and then I lost my vision at 11, can’t see light or anything.Ìý So, you know, I think when I do meet people, I can’t exactly play off the blind thing because, of course, I need assistance, I need help, I need a moment to explain something.Ìý So, you know, blindness will always be that sort of first object of conversation, otherwise, I’m sort of left in the dark literally and figuratively.Ìý But despite that I really have not felt as though someone has used that blindness as sort of leveraging or disadvantaging – is that even a word – you know, using it as a disadvantage…

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White

It is now.

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Sirine

…to… it is now, exactly, okay, so disadvantaging because, at the end of the day, music is what I’ve always loved before I was blind, after I became blind, still to this day and probably forever will be.Ìý I just so happen to be blind, to have tumours that, unfortunately, took my sight.

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White

I want to throw this back to Lachi because you’re campaigning on this and we’ve sort of uncovered, haven’t we, a bit of a dilemma.Ìý You’re saying you want people to have the same opportunities, we’re also hearing people recognising that they need help at certain times.Ìý Is there a difficulty in balancing those two things?

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Lachi

No.Ìý So, when we talk about equity, if there’s someone who’s 10 feet tall and there’s someone who’s two feet tall and they’re both trying to see over a fence, well you don’t give them the same height stool to try to see over the fence.Ìý Right?Ìý

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White

Yeah.

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Lachi

If someone who walks onto a stage and they’re blind and someone who walks on to a stage who is not blind or in a wheelchair or something else, in order to equitably service them, they will require different accommodations.Ìý It’s not special treatment, it’s equitable treatment.Ìý Now, for me, I’m actually proud of being blind, I actually think it’s cool because I mean anyone who knows me knows that I have glittered canes, I dress up, I have all these outfits, I’m touring all the time, I’m really loud about it, I’m excited to share that I’m blind.Ìý Because I do that, when I’m booked, everyone knows – okay, she’s blind, so let’s ask the right questions, let’s get it all set up.Ìý And it’s not necessarily a problem, it’s not a problem for me to get the extra tickets or plus ones or anything I need for my assistance – my sighted this, my that, right – because they’re used to understanding what I need.Ìý That may not be the case for other folks.

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White

No.Ìý And is that what scares bookers and agents and of the people who we may say are sometimes the villains of this, that they think – oh my god, I’ve got to get all these different height stools for all these different people, you know?

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Lachi

Well let me say this last thing to that point.Ìý It’s like now I’m in a situation where I can send a rider beforehand and say these are all the things I need and if you don’t give me them, I’m not playing there.Ìý And they go – wait, we want you to play here – so, they give me the things I need.Ìý But this brings us back to culture, right, not everybody has in that situation and so when they ask for things, you know, the booking agents will say – well, who do you think you are that I need to spend this much money on you.

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White

Well, Denise, that’s your story, isn’t it, with one agent – why do I have to concentrate on you when I’ve got all these sighted opera singers.

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Leigh

Exactly but that was 20 years ago.Ìý I think there is an awareness that you just can’t say that sort of thing anymore, nobody would say you did well considering.Ìý I hope no one would say – why should I promote you when I’ve got loads of sighted people on my books.Ìý I mean I think he’ll remember it forever and a day because I sacked him.

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White

But… and maybe what we’re hearing from Sirine, maybe that is beginning to happen, that’s the suggestion, isn’t it?

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Sirine

Certainly.Ìý You know honestly in some ways I do feel like blindness has so many advantages.Ìý And so, I’m bloody proud sometimes.Ìý Sometimes I’m not, you know, sometimes I cry about it, I’m just like – why me.Ìý But most of the time, it really is such a blessing.Ìý Like I feel like I wouldn’t have been so much into music.Ìý You know like I was talking about Robin Miller earlier.Ìý In the ‘80s god did he get neglected, many, many times because he was blind.Ìý But yeah, I’m not feeling that.

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White

So, let me just, finally, go back to Lachi.Ìý I mean to what extent does your disability or your feelings about disability influence your music, how much has that become a part of what you write, what you record?

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Lachi

As I became more accepting of my disability and eventually more proud of it, it is definitely showcased in my music.Ìý I went through a period of time where I was very sort of – I don’t want to say depressed but almost in denial about my disability and is showcased in my work, even though I wasn’t actively writing about it.Ìý I recently put out a track called Black Girl Cornrows and it’s my visual description.Ìý You know, sometimes I go to these office meetings and they’ll spend 45 minutes trying to describe what they look like because – oh no, there’s a blind person so we need to talk about how we look – and they spend forever.Ìý They get to me and I go – hey my name is Lachi and I’m a black girl with cornrows and everybody was like – whoa, that was really fast.Ìý And so, I decided to write an entire song about visual description but also include my own pride in myself.Ìý So, it’s, you know, Lachi she her black girl cornrows, brown skin, big city raised, upborn, now see me with a drip with the face of a shoelace hanging from the cane when they see me blown the horns up loud.

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Music

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So, you know, it’s about my own pride in myself, I wouldn’t have written something like that fives year ago.

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White

Brilliant illustration.Ìý Sirine, what about you, do you write about your blindness?

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Sirine

I don’t exactly lyrically explain the exact situation as it is.Ìý But I think emotional power is a huge, huge factor in the song writing process and the creation of music.Ìý So, you know, I’m implicitly explaining my situation, what I’m feeling.Ìý So, there’s a song called Watching, I think it’s the darkest song I’ve ever written.

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Music

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That really sort of explains how I felt through my teenage years of losing my vision.Ìý I love to paint pictures in my songs because I can’t see the pictures but I can write about them.

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White

And Denise, I’m not sure you’ve written any operas but…

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Leigh

No, it is slightly different when you are singing the music or performing the music that other people have written.Ìý What I did find, though, was that when I started working so extensively on the stage, I had to really learn about body language because my mother’s blind as well, so I hadn’t got the physical vocabulary that you require for the stage.Ìý So, I’ve done a lot of work on learning how to sort of physically inhabit my voice and my space.Ìý I mean a lot of the music, because I’m quite an early music specialist, that I’m singing, has been written sort of 400, 300 years ago.

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Music

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White

We’re going to leave it there.Ìý My thanks to Lachi, to Denise Leigh, to Sirine and good luck for the future with all your plans.

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Just one other thing, before we go, we’d like to hear more of your experiences of learning a language, whether using traditional methods or the latest technology.Ìý You can email intouch@bbc.co.uk, you can leave us your voice messages on 0161 8361338 and you can go to our website bbc.co.uk/intouch.Ìý From me, Peter White, our guests, producer Beth Hemmings and studio managers, Simon Highfield and Amy Brennan.Ìý So, good to see gender balance somewhere anyway.Ìý Goodbye.

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