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IN TOUCH – Technology Training and Rehab Services; You Heard It Here First

TX:Ìý 04.04.2023Ìý 2040-2100

PRESENTER:Ìý ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý PETER WHITE

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PRODUCER:ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý BETH HEMMINGS

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White

Good evening.Ìý Later tonight, we’ll be picking up some threads from last week’s debate about whether it’s harder or easier to be visually impaired in today’s world and, in particular, finding out where you can get real help to cope with the technology, which increasingly dominates our lives.

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But we’ll also be asking – can visual impairment be funny?

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Clip

And all I want to know is how much money do I drop here.Ìý [Coins dropping]

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White

That’s from blind comedian Chris McCausland’s new Radio 4 show, You Heard It Here First, that’s what it’s called.Ìý We’ll be asking – what’s it trying to do and does he really get paid all that for the programme.

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But first, a bit of positive news.Ìý The Department for Transport has announced new rules that mean by 2026 almost all buses and coaches in Britain will be obliged to have audio information on their vehicles, giving passengers details about the route, the next stops and any potential diversions.Ìý It’s something which blind and partially sighted people in London and a few other towns and cities have been enjoying for some time.Ìý People like Mel Griffiths, who told us:

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Griffiths

Nottingham City Transport have embraced talking buses.Ìý On their app you can look at the buses that are due to arrive at your stop and if you see yours coming you can hit a Stop Bus button.Ìý It will alert the driver that there is someone travelling with a guide dog and waiting to be picked up.

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White

But at the moment, 70% of buses outside the capital don’t have these kinds of services.Ìý Well, the government is putting up just over four and a half million pounds to help smaller companies provide these facilities.Ìý We had hoped to talk to the Roads and Accessibility Minister about their plans.Ìý We’ve been told his schedule is too tight to talk to us this week but we have been promised an interview in the near future.

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Meanwhile, our debate about the pros and cons of modern life for visually impaired people has unleashed a flood of response and we thank you for that.Ìý We intend to follow up with many of the points that were raised in the programme and indeed many of the points we didn’t have the time to raise.Ìý For example, if technology to help visually impaired people is so tough to master for some, who can provide the training that people need?Ìý Well, this was raised in our debate last week by Roshni Hafeez.

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Hafeez

Especially for people who have newly been diagnosed, that is very nuanced because it’s imperative that rehab staff etc. are equipped with the skills because it’s no longer about how to use a liquid level indicator or basic white cane skills, it’s actually how to interface with touchscreens on your iPhone.Ìý So, I think, while that wouldn’t solve a lot of the external infrastructure problems that we face with the touchscreens and so on, it would definitely go a long, long way to making sure that people have improved access to the built and technological environment, thus giving them the ability to advocate more strongly for themselves and the changes they want to see.

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White

I’ll just go back quickly to Matt because this is very much your field.Ìý I mean, if somebody doesn’t really know their way around, how would we tackle it, who should be tackling it?

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Johnson

So, when someone is confronted with an inaccessible website or an inaccessible app, oft times they’ll think – it’s my own skill that is lacking, that’s the reason I can’t access this.Ìý If we had people who were confident in the level of ability that they had, they would instantaneously know – okay, this isn’t me, this is a decision by an app developer to make something inaccessible – and then the cry for accessibility would be louder.Ìý So, that’s my first point.Ìý Second point, around training, the rehab courses in this country perhaps don’t emphasise technology enough and the people that are training rehab oft times are sighted and so don’t necessarily interface with technology in the way that we do and thereby don’t have the skills that we have and need to impart to newly blind people.

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White

So, train the trainers?

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Johnson

Train the trainers and get some blind ones.

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White

That was data and IT lawyer Matt Johnson and before that Roshni Hafeez.

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Well, in a moment, we will be talking to a representative of rehab officers about those comments.Ìý But first, other possibilities where training can be had.Ìý

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Scott Wood is a team leader of the RNIB’s technology for life service, helping people to access all kinds of assistive technology.

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Scott, first of all, I mean what can you offer people?

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Wood

Our primary strand is our helpline where people can phone in and get referred through to the technology for life team and we can talk through anybody having problems, if people know how to use the device to a certain extent we can show them how to access various apps and things like that.Ìý We also have over 307 volunteers that we have across the country, who mostly will go and visit people in their homes and give them some basic training and support with their devices.Ìý They also do some troubleshooting and that kind of stuff.

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White

Right.Ìý I think this is key because a lot of face-to-face interaction stopped during covid.Ìý What I really want to know is has it really recovered, how easy is it for people to get face-to-face, hand-to-hand technology help?

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Wood

Admittedly we did take a bit of a knock during covid, none of the volunteers could go out at that time, obviously, and we did lose a few volunteers there.Ìý And so, yes, it is a challenge, I have to admit, to get volunteers out, especially in rural areas but we are looking to go on a volunteering campaign to recruit more volunteers to fill in the gaps later on this year.

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White

And what if there isn’t a volunteer in someone’s area?

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Wood

So, we would explore the options with partners, such as local societies and other organisations like AbilityNet, we’ll work with them to see if they have volunteers in that area.Ìý We would also suggest other ideas, we have volunteers who can work over the phone, they are blind and partially sighted people – 13% of our volunteer cohort are actually blind, partially sighted.Ìý If they’re – not feel comfortable with that we have a strategy of working with maybe friends or family of that person and showing them over the phone how things might work so that they can physically show their family member or friend.

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White

And what about the point that our guests were making on that programme last week that the people you would hope newly blind would see early for this training would be rehab officers, do they have the knowledge to get people up and running with technology?

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Wood

The ones that I know, and this is purely anecdotal, some have some experience, some have knowledge, some don’t – it’s very patchy.Ìý But one of our strategies is to work with partners and working with [indistinct word] and rehab officers, and people like that, would be one of the things that we could possibly do.Ìý But my fear around that is that they’re so overworked and under resourced, they just wouldn’t have the time to take that sort of work on.

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White

Okay.Ìý Let me bring in Dr Mike Townsend, he’s the PR lead of what is now the Technology Association of Visually Impaired People, perhaps formerly known to some people as the British Computer Association for the Blind.Ìý Mike, first of all, what can your organisation offer and how similar is it to what Scott’s been talking about?

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Townsend

Well, most of our support is peer group support.Ìý That means that we have blind and partially sighted enthusiasts, volunteers, involved.Ìý And we offer a tech chat every month.Ìý Then we do something particularly for people going into work we can give five hours free training, that could be face-to-face or virtual to support them into using technology into work.

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White

I mean, yes, what you’re offering is great for people who, at least, have got started but people who are really struggling, maybe have had help but don’t make friends with computers very easily, they’re the people who surely need face-to-face, hand-to-hand.

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Townsend

I have a bit of a bone to pick with you, Peter, you’ve implied that it’s difficult.Ìý You might find it difficult.Ìý I think a lot of newly blind people who don’t start out thinking it’s difficult do very well…

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White

I only say that it’s difficult because I also know a lot of other people who tell me it is as well, which is why I’m stressing how these people can get the help they need.

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Townsend

No, no but I think it’s an attitude of mind, Peter.Ìý Where you start from can be quite an issue.Ìý And my IT for All project which trained 2,000 people successfully to use technology started with what do you want to do and this is how technology can help you, let’s try it together.Ìý Those were face-to-face but I’ve done some virtually as well and together we have discovered, actually, it’s not quite so difficult.

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White

We’re all for being positive on this programme, so I wouldn’t disagree with you there.Ìý I do want to ask what’s your own view about the role of rehab officers when it comes to technology training?

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Townsend

It’s a postcode lottery I would say and I would like, personally, to change that.

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White

Scott Wood and Dr Mike Townsend there.Ìý

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Well listening to all of that has been Simon Labbett, who’s a rehab officer himself and chair of the Rehabilitation Workers Professional Network.Ìý What’s your reaction?

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Labbett

A couple of things stand out.Ìý First, is a correction that the courses that people go on now, to train to be a vision rehab specialist, do include technology as a major part of their course.Ìý And the second point is, I completely agree that we start where people want to learn, what do they want to do and, where appropriate, how can technology reach that goal.Ìý So, we introduce technology as part of the solution and our job, I suppose, is to teach people strategies to learn those bits of equipment.

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White

But I mean given that we know that there are places that don’t have enough, sometimes no rehab officers, we know that because you’ve told us on previous programmes and that, also, there maybe quite a lot of variation between rehab officers, it might be a bit of a lottery whether the rehab officer that somebody gets knows a lot about it, is keen on it, thinks it’s important.

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Labbett

That’s a fair point.Ìý We, as an organisation, RWPN, require our professionals to do – continue professional development and last year we put an emphasis on technology skills, particularly skills related to learning things like voice activation, voiceover talkback on phones and tablets.Ìý It really matters.Ìý So, the ones coming through who’ve just qualified will know this stuff, the ones who’ve been longer in the game, we require them to learn about it.

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White

I mean the fact of the matter is isn’t this stuff now probably more important or at least as important as the things that have been done traditionally, like long cane training, like cooking, like doing stuff in your house.Ìý So many of the things we do now are related to computers and if done properly can really improve your life.

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Labbett

Yes and you say things like orientation mobility and living and cooking and things like that, technology happens in all those – you’re setting timers, with outdoor mobility you’re looking at apps that can get you from A to B more safely.Ìý So, it’s integrated into daily life, it’s not a kind of special thing that’s done separately – here, learn some technology.Ìý In that initial conversation with someone who’s losing their sight, you’re saying – well what do you want to be able to do or what did you do before but you can’t do now.Ìý And for that particular professional, if they don’t quite know how to do it, they need to go away and find out how to do it, it’s as simple as that.Ìý I mean then we can refer on to other organisations where it goes beyond our particular skillset but as a start off it’s definitely our role.

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White

One last thing, the point Matt Johnson made, we need more blind rehab officers.Ìý What do you say to that?

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Labbett

Yeah, I agree.Ìý There’s no substitute for peer interaction, whether that’s a professional rehab specialist or a lay person, there’s no better peer than someone who’s visually impaired.

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White

I mean, do you know how many there are – visually impaired rehab officers?

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Labbett

I’d say it’s about just under 10% of the total workforce, so that would be around about 40-50 I guess, we don’t know definitively.

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White

But you’d like to see more?

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Labbett

Oh definitely, yes.

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White

Simon Labbett, thank you very much for joining us.

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Now, if you’ve been tuning in lately to Radio 4’s 6.30 comedy slot on a Tuesday you’ll have heard a show you’d have been very unlikely to have come across until very recently.

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Clip – You Heard It Here First – Radio 4

Hello and welcome to You Heard It Here First, the show that asks our guests to live in an audio only world and decipher audio clips to see if they can figure out what the hell is going on, where the hell it’s going on and why the hell it’s being allowed to go in the first place.Ìý My name’s Chris McCausland and I devised this show because I’m blind and I wanted to demonstrate just how difficult it can be operating in the world with audio alone.Ìý So, if it turns out that these guys are really good at this, I’ll make sure this show never sees the light of day.

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White

Chris has explained the concept, does it work, is there a serious idea behind it and does it really matter if there isn’t?Ìý Well, Reece Finnegan is a visually impaired comedy writer and assistant TV producer and he was in the audience for the recording of the first couple of shows.

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Reece, I mean, first of all, overall assessment, what did you think of it?

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Finnegan

I loved it.Ìý It’s not often that you can turn on the radio or the TV as a blind or visually impaired person and see something that is so relevant to your life but done in a very accessible way for everyone.Ìý

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White

Is it meant, though, to be educational in any sense or is it just a bit of fun?

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Finnegan

It’s more aired towards fun but I think it kind of works as a bit of a double hander because I feel like people don’t even realise how much they learn from it, you know, there’s a lot, as you know yourself, that sighted people take very much for granted about living with sight.Ìý And that’s what I thought was really funny listening to on the show, actually, with the sighted comedians having a go at doing stuff that we do literally every day – like talking to someone and trying to guess how old they are or listening to how many coins have just been dropped and trying to work out how many – do you know what I mean, you just do it without even thinking.

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White

Yeah, I’m glad you picked up the thing about the age thing because I thought that is one of the real things that can be a dilemma can’t it, you’re making an assessment on the voice alone.Ìý Shall we just hear how the panel, who were all sighted, of course, dealt with it?

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Clip – You Heard It Here First – Radio 4

Hi, I’m Caroline and I’m Chris McCausland’s biggest fan.

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Hi, my name is Mary and I’m Chris McCausland’s biggest fan.

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I mean what are the chances of that, both of them.

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I see what you’re doing there Chris.

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Now I see, okay, Mary so…

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Mary, mature, yeah.

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So, that’s 2-300?

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That’s horrible.

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Mary, as in and Joseph.Ìý I would have said 60, so why don’t we…

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Split the difference.

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Sixty-two.

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I mean, I know that this is a game but I just feel like it’s just polite to guess under.Ìý I say we say 32 for both of them and then, you know, it’s – we’ve played it safe.

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And I can tell you that Mary was 59.

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White

So much for being polite.Ìý Reece, as we’ve mentioned, you were in the audience, what after editing didn’t the radio audience hear?

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Finnegan

The biggest thing was probably at the start Chris did a very handy explanation for the audience and the comedians on the panel about how he was reading the script and how the producers were kind of adapting things for him in different ways.Ìý So, he was reading a laptop with his screen reader, so he kind of made a joke at the start and he said – If I come across at all robotic at any point then don’t blame me, it’s the screen reader’s fault.Ìý But, to be honest, it didn’t really feel like any different from a fully sighted presenter who has to do take after take and Chris, from what I remember, barely needed any second takes, so, yeah.

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White

And did you have a favourite bit because there were different rounds with different themes?

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Finnegan

Do you know I absolutely loved the quick fire round at the end, I thought it was just such brilliant chaos.

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Clip – You Heard It Here First – Radio 4

Is this a bird or a monkey?

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[Noise]

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Bird.

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It’s a monkey.Ìý Donna, what instrument is this?

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[Noise]

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A trumpet?

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No it’s a saxophone.

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Oh I knew it, I knew that.

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Reece, what’s on the telly?

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Welcome back everyone.

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Better Call Saul

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No it’s the Muppet Show.

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Donna, is this a pound or two pounds?

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That is a pound.

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It’s a two pound.

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Damn it.

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White

And we should just explain the Reece on the panel is not the Reece that we’ve had in the studio.Ìý

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Finnegan

Very confusing.

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White

Just one quick last question:Ìý Has this got a repeat series in it or is it a one-off gag, as it were?

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Finnegan

I really hope that it’s a recurring thing.Ìý The thing that I really love about it is obviously I work in TV myself and it’s so frustrating that we still are very much in a space where commissioners and the people that make TV they don’t think of making things and attaching them with disabled talent because they think – oh well, it has to be about disability for us to put a disabled person front and centre.Ìý So, the thing I love about this is even though it’s developed in the mind of oh this is Chris from a blind perspective doing a blind quiz for sighted people, like you, kind of – as I said at the beginning, it doesn’t feel like there’s a bit message that’s being rammed down your throat or anything, it happens to have a premise which is about disability but it’s very accessible and it’s very – very refreshing, I think.

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White

Reece Finnegan, thank you very much indeed.Ìý There are still two more editions of the programme left in the series on the following two Tuesdays at 6.30 pm and if you’ve listened do tell us what you thought.Ìý And by the way, the number of coins or the amount of money that Chris dropped at the beginning of the programme was £2.56.Ìý I don’t think anybody could have got that right.

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Anyway, you can email intouch@bbc.co.uk, leave us a voice message on 0161 8361338 and if you want any more information about anything you’ve heard on the programme try our website bbc.co.uk/intouch.Ìý From me, Peter White, producer Beth Hemmings and studio managers Amy Brennan and Sue Stonestreet, goodbye.

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