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Not just in the United States, but across the world the Black Lives Matter movement has prompted debate about race, identity and power. It is a campaign predicated on ideas about what it means to be black and white; but what if those very terms are themselves part of the problem? Stephen Sackur speaks to Thomas Chatterton William - a mixed race American writer and a self-declared ex-black man whose ideas present a challenge to so-called woke culture. How much room is there right now for respectful, thoughtful debate?