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IN TOUCH 鈥� Job Prospects

TX:听 24.03.20听 2040-2100

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PRESENTER:听 听听听听听听听 PETER WHITE听

PRODUCER:听 听听听听听听听听听 KEVIN CORE

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White

Good evening.听 Tonight, just how healthy are the prospects of work for visually impaired people?听 What kinds of jobs are available, how easy is it to get the right training and just how willing are employers to take us on?听 Well, on the face of it, there seems to be a mismatch between expectations and the facts.听 What we know is that the proportion of blind and partially sighted people of working age, who are in a job, has changed very little since back in the 1970s, it still looks as it did then, as if only about one in three visually impaired people are in work.听 And yet, when our reporter, Fern Lulham, spent time talking to a group of young people recently she found something very different.

听

Fern, explain the context really of what you found.

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Lulham

Well I went to a Look event held in London and it鈥檚 aimed at young visually impaired people to prepare them for life at university.听 Now naturally the world of work is something that you also consider at that point.听 So, I asked them how they were feeling about their prospects.

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Attendee

I think the aim will be 鈥� well the aim will be to get a job at a radio station, probably be starting with community radio.听 It鈥檚 all good experience and it鈥檚 all a job that I鈥檒l enjoy. I think I鈥檒l be more confident once I finish my time at university because they will have taught me new skills in both employability 鈥� so being interviewed for a job 鈥� but also I鈥檒l have the radio production skills, which will be more advanced after three, possibly more, years at university.

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Lulham

How hard was it find a job as a young person with a visual impairment?

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Second Attendee

Yes, so I was 鈥� I took a bit of time in terms of looking for work because I was looking for something specifically to do with translation, which is what I studied, and I鈥檓 lucky now to do exactly something that鈥檚 related to my studies.听 And it went well, I went through various different types of interviews for different companies and now I feel like I鈥檝e been working somewhere where I鈥檓 pleased and they seem pleased with me.

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Lulham

Do you know what kind of job you might want to go into and how easy do you think it might be for you to find the work that you want?

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Third Attendee

I want to move into business, maybe managing, so I think being visually impaired 鈥� it鈥檚 quite easy 鈥� well it鈥檚 easy for me to be able to just tell people specifically what I want, what I need them to do.听 So, if you鈥檙e at the top it鈥檚 a lot easier, whereas if you鈥檙e working underneath somebody else it鈥檚 a lot more difficult, so, just knowing what you need specifically.听 So, that鈥檚 why, in the future, I want to, hopefully, set up my own business.听 So, that way if you鈥檙e working for yourself you know you鈥檙e your own boss.

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White

So, on the whole, optimism and confidence from those young people.听 But how likely are those high hopes to be fulfilled?听 Later on we鈥檒l be hearing what the Royal National College at Hereford can offer by way of training and placement but Fern, first of all, you have a dual role in this programme because as well as being our reporter, you鈥檝e trodden the path that most of those youngsters are about to tread.听 What was your experience?

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Lulham

So, I went to university in America and I think if you鈥檇 have asked me when I returned to the UK, before I started applying for jobs, I probably would have come back with a lot of the same answers that the young people I asked did say, which was positive and optimistic, thinking that I would be fine.听 But I was met with a lot of failed job applications, unanswered emails and starting to feel like maybe this is going to be a lot harder than I thought it was going to be.听 I actually had an interview with a charity who helps disabled people and at that interview I reeled off a long list of my best achievements and qualifications and experience and they asked me two questions, which were both relating to my disability, and it sort of felt like even if I鈥檇 told them I was the President of the United States it still would have been like 鈥� yeah but you can鈥檛 see 鈥� that was all they cared about.

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White

Did you seek help or did you try to go it alone?听 I鈥檓 just interested in the kind of help from the people who are supposed to give you assistance in this.

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Lulham

Yeah, I did approach the Job Centre and they directed me to an organisation that specialised in helping getting employment for disabled people.听 However, I realised very quickly that that probably wasn鈥檛 going to be for me because to be part of this programme you had to attend a job course and it was all things to do with how to write a CV, how to dress for an interview and as somebody who鈥檇 been through university and had paid work before when I was in the United States I really felt that that was very patronising and degrading and it just made me feel even worse about myself.

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White

Okay, well one organisation which was set up to give a helping hand to people was Blind in Business.听 It was founded and is run by visually impaired people.听 I鈥檓 joined by Jess Clements, she鈥檚 Apprenticeship Coordinator, whose role is to help find those jobs.听 Tell us a bit more about Blind in Business, first of all, Jess.

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Clements

Blind in Business was originally set up mainly to educate young people around what technology is available.听 I think in the 鈥�90s this was obviously very relevant.听 There was lots of new software coming out that was enabling visually impaired people to work on the same level as fully sighted people.听 But slowly this has become more working towards educating young people on what skills they鈥檇 need for the workplace.

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White

Educating young people or educating employers?听 I mean do you get involved in that part of the exercise?

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Clements

Yeah, we work with both really.听 So, a lot of the work I do is mainly with school age children trying to build confidence and raise their aspirations from a younger age and ensuring that they have the right skills to go into the workplace.听 But on the other side we do work with a lot of employers to try and ensure that they understand the concept of a disability and what that means practically in the workplace.

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White

We鈥檒l come back to that issue of not understanding, particularly visual impairment.听 I just want to ask you one more specific question.听 The market has changed very much for blind people, hasn鈥檛 it, in the past there were a number of jobs that were regarded as 鈥渂lind jobs鈥�, if you鈥檒l forgive the phrase 鈥� physiotherapy, telephony, clerical jobs, light engineering.听 Now most of those jobs have either disappeared altogether or they鈥檝e changed so much in their demands that they鈥檙e harder to get into.听 What is there in its place?

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Clements

I think really what we try to encourage young people to think is you can really be anything but a bus driver.听 Now, as technology has improved so much, there is little that isn鈥檛 accessible to visually impaired people.

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White

That sounds very optimistic. 听Is it really true to say you can do almost anything but be a bus driver?听 I mean, you know, given what we鈥檝e been saying about the kind of barriers that people face.

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Clements

From my own experience as well, it鈥檚 a lot down to attitude.听 I think we, in a lot of cases, are bubble wrapping a lot of visually impaired children and over-protecting them and then expecting them to succeed in the workplace, which doesn鈥檛 add up altogether.

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White

When you say bubble wrapping, what do you mean?

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Clements

Yeah.听 I think where in the past, some people might disagree with this, but in the past specialists schools for visual impairment have worked really well, a lot of children that I visit within those schools now want to be within the mainstream system and to be integrated because they feel as though they would succeed better in an environment that would be more like the one they would work in.

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White

Now it鈥檚 interesting that you make the point that you think maybe special schools have bubble wrapped children but there are still people who believe that the special schools, or at least colleges, can give people very specific tailored help鈥�

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Clements

Yeah of course.

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White

鈥�the Royal National College at Hereford is one of the relatively few places which provides specific training for visually impaired people preparing for the workplace.听 John Lynch is its Director of Curriculum, and he told me more about the adjustments they find they have to make with youngsters coming from mainstream schools.

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Lynch

It is an element of realism.听 I think one of the things that we find is that when students first come to us that they will have been in a situation where they haven鈥檛 had the exposure to real opportunities in terms of employment.听 And what I mean by that is that mainstream often are concerned around pushing their students into work placements, for example.听 They鈥檙e quite vocationally na茂ve when they come to us.听 So, we spend a lot of time in terms of providing support in what might be realistic employment opportunities for our students.

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White

So, this is because people are perhaps coming from mainstream schools where the schools don鈥檛 quite know what is realistic for them to point people towards?

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Lynch

Yeah, absolutely.听 I think there鈥檚 a gap in careers support for visually impaired young people and I think there鈥檚 also an element of fear in terms of placing people with employers and not being able to provide the assurances to those employers as well, whilst they have them on placement.

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White

You have been working on government programmes as well, to help prepare people for work or get them into perhaps different jobs.听 How successful have those programmes been?

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Lynch

So, the Specialist Employability Support Programme that we鈥檝e been working on with our sort of older students, they have been incredibly successful actually.听 The latest data released for that was on 30th October 2019 and we were the second highest provider, in terms of achieving short job outcomes, and we were the top provider in terms of maintaining that to a sustained outcome of employment for those people that went through the programme.听 One situation that would leap out, that we had a customer early on in the programme who was following a fitness instructor qualification, and he, in fact, on leaving the programme had set up self-employed and is working within a gym in his home area of South Wales.听 It鈥檚 a wide range of roles that our customers on that programme have gone into.

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White

But I understand this programme is coming to an end.听 What鈥檚 happening and what effect is that having?

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Lynch

So, that programme is now set to tail off and we are seeing the last of those customers go through the programme.听 For those people now that would want to access support, they would still do it in the same way, so they would go through their job centre but unfortunately, they wouldn鈥檛 be able to access a visually impaired specialist organisation because we are no longer part of that offer.听 So, the kind of access that they would be supporting would be for providers that are geared up to support people with a range of disabilities, rather than being able to specifically support and have the expertise to support those with a visual impairment.

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White

John Lynch, well the Department for Work and Pensions told us that the replacement for specialist employability support should still provide visually impaired people with tailored help.听 And they added that people with visual impairments can claim up to 拢59,200 annually to help pay for additional support through Access to Work.听 That is absolutely at the top end of course.

听

Jess, I just want to come back to you, because there seems to be a bit of divergence there.听 You鈥檙e saying you think that possibly in special schools they鈥檙e bubble wrapped, John Lynch is saying blind people and partially sighted people often need one to one specialist training and that often is being recognised, maybe by the DWP but also by employers either.

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Clements

Maybe this is more of a kind of generational trend.听 People my age were very much encouraged to kind of speak out, self-expression is a trend now really, and I think self-advocacy is becoming a big thing.听 So, being able to teach young people to advocate for themselves and to be able to go into a mainstream environment and to know what they need is really important, I think.

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White

Let me bring Fern back on this.听 What do you think about this idea that, you know, clearly the trend now is go mainstream and for people to be able to try and, you know, as Jess was saying, go for the job that they really wanted to do but are we sometimes confusing being integrated with not having any specialised help when you need it, on a one-to-one basis?

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Lulham

Yeah, I think that can be true.听 I went to a mainstream school and I basically got the same one-week work experience which was offered to every student.听 I do think experience in work is hugely important, everyone knows the Catch-22 of you can鈥檛 get a job without experience, you can鈥檛 get experience without a job.听 So, I do think it鈥檚 hugely important.听 But I would say that maybe they need to have some people who have had experience of work as a visually impaired person go into mainstream schools and say these are the things that we need, like Jess was saying about advocating for yourself and things like, it鈥檚 those things that I think you probably need in the workplace as a visually impaired person more than anyone else and those are the skills that maybe the mainstream schools need to be focusing on.

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Clements

Yeah, I think in the same theme, positive role models are being really underestimated and I think for a young visually impaired person in a mainstream school where they think they鈥檙e the only visually impaired person and they don鈥檛 quite know what that means yet or is going to mean in the world of work, having somebody say look it is possible, I鈥檝e done it, this is the tech I use, this is the help my school gave me, stand up for yourself.听 That can be really 鈥� really helpful.

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White

What鈥檚 really clear is this business about barriers, it does crop up all the time.听 I just want to go back to some of the recordings Fern did, that we heard at the beginning, because this question of attitudes to you comes up all the time.

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Fourth Attendee

My visual impairment was a barrier, probably, it certainly took me longer than average to find a job.听 I now work as a software engineer, which is quite a sort after field and even with that in mind it took me nine months in a training programme, which ultimately came to nothing and then three months on the open job market before I actually landed a role.听 Which for a skillset that鈥檚 highly in demand is probably atypical.听 My dad actually accompanied me to various interviews and he posed as a taxi driver, essentially, so he just didn鈥檛 mention that he was my dad, he sort of dropped me off and walked away, but he did catch glimpses of the prospective interviewers鈥� expressions when they saw that I had a white cane and he would often tell me before I鈥檇 even got home whether I鈥檇 got the job or not based on whether their face reacted a certain way.

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White

So, that keeps cropping up.听 I鈥檇 just like to put a question to you both.听 I quoted those figures at the beginning, still only one in three people of working age in jobs who are visually impaired, I just want to know if there was one big change you could make to change that figure, which nobody鈥檚 succeeded in doing yet, what would it be?听 Fern.

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Lulham

At the moment I think, as far as I can see, with things like Disability Confident, which is run by the government, it鈥檚 all very much a nice to have rather than a must have.听 So, it鈥檚 like it would be really nice if you come along to this event and help these disabled people 鈥� but there鈥檚 no enforcement, nobody is saying you have to do this and so, therefore, people who aren鈥檛 interested just aren鈥檛 doing it.听 But I do think I always say it鈥檚 education over confrontation, I think people need to sit down, disabled charities and organisations, to help sit down with employers and say this is what is needed and how can we best work together to make everyone happy.

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White

Jess, one big change?

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Clements

Educating people around the fact that it鈥檚 not an option and that there are young people out there who as a consequence of the employers鈥� attitudes feel hesitant about going into the workplace because they know what will come back at them and they know, yeah, their needs won鈥檛 be understood I suppose, so definitely education, as Fern said.

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White

So, education of employers or education of everyone?

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Clements

Education to employers around the needs of disabled peoples 鈥� specifically visually impaired I suppose.听 With young people I think it鈥檚 more confidence building and raising those aspirations.

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White

Okay.听 Jess Clements, Fern Lulham, maybe you鈥檒l get the chance to try and enforce the changes you鈥檇 like to make.听 We鈥檇 like to know what you think of what experiences you鈥檝e had of getting, keeping, maybe losing jobs.听 You can leave us voice messages on 0161 8361338.听 You can email intouch@bbc.co.uk.听 You can go to our website, that鈥檚 bbc.co.uk/intouch.听 And from there, of course, as always, you can download tonight鈥檚 and previous editions of the programme.

听

From me, Peter White, from our guests and producer Kev Core, goodbye.