THE ATTACHED TRANSCRIPT WAS TYPED FROM A RECORDING AND NOT COPIED FROM AN ORIGINAL SCRIPT.听 BECAUSE OF THE RISK OF MISHEARING AND THE DIFFICULTY IN SOME CASES OF IDENTIFYING INDIVIDUAL SPEAKERS, THE 麻豆社 CANNOT VOUCH FOR ITS COMPLETE ACCURACY.

IN TOUCH 鈥� Scotland bans parking on pavements

听

TX:听 15.10.2019听 2040-2100

PRESENTER:听 听听听听听听听 PETER WHITE

PRODUCER:听 听听听听听听听听听 LEE KUMUTAT

听

White

Good evening.听 The car parked slap bang in the middle of the pavement 鈥� the hazard blind people have had to put up with for decades.听 But is Scotland now showing the way?

While in Wales鈥�

听

Clip

When they鈥檙e doing deliveries鈥�

听

In the morning?听 What time is that?

听

Six, between 鈥� well five and nine.

听

Yeah, you just get a lot of racket?

听

Yeah.

听

Yeah.听 Makes it difficult to sleep.

听

White

The man who鈥檚 been sharing the noises of the night with the rough sleepers of Cardiff.

听

Last Thursday, the Scottish Parliament passed a bill which will gladden the hearts of many visually impaired people 鈥� it bans vehicles from parking on the pavement.听 This has been the subject of many campaigns over the years by organisations representing blind people, some local authorities throughout the UK have by-laws placing restrictions on parking on pavements but enforcement has always been patchy at best.

听

This is the first nationwide ban in the UK.听 Living Streets is one of the groups that鈥檚 been pressing for this for over a decade, alongside disability organisations.听 Joe Irvin is their chief executive.听 He told me more about what the ban covers.

听

Irvin

What it says is it will be an offence for a vehicle to park on the pavement unless there is a clear indication, a clear signage, to show that it鈥檚 a designated space for that.听 So, in nearly all cases, there will be a ban right across Scotland.

听

White

I mean just what might be designated spaces where things 鈥� it will be okay for them to park?

听

Irvin

If you look at London, where there鈥檚 been a ban on pavement parking since the 1970s, it鈥檚 the one part of the UK where that has been in place, what they do is they mark off places.听 What we鈥檙e very keen to see is if they do mark off a place it鈥檚 only if it鈥檚 a necessary provision and that there is space left on the pavement for people to get by, including people, for example, in a wheelchair or with a guide dog.

听

White

One of the problems has always been enforcement, so that, for example, you wouldn鈥檛 know there was a parking ban in London if you walk around it, as I have done over the years.

听

Irvin

Well it鈥檚 a bit better in London than the rest of the country but you鈥檙e right, enforcement鈥檚 an issue.听 I recently saw a lorry completely blocking a pavement next to Moorfield鈥檚 Eye Hospital, which is almost unbelievable that somebody would be as inconsiderate as to do that, it鈥檚 mindless to do it.听 And I think drivers just sometimes don鈥檛 realise what a problem it is, they don鈥檛 think.听 And so, I think part of what we鈥檙e seeking in Scotland and hopefully if this is followed in the rest of the UK, is education of drivers to really understand the problem that they鈥檙e causing, that people might be forced to step out into traffic because their pavement passage is blocked.

听

White

But are there any specific assurances that this law will be treated any differently than in other parts of the UK, particularly as far as enforcement鈥檚 concerned?

听

Irvin

Well we鈥檙e going to work with the Scottish government to do the guidance on this, which is coming up and so are many groups who particularly represent people with disabilities.听 Guide Dogs has worked with us on this for years.听 I think because it鈥檚 a nationwide ban in Scotland it鈥檚 really quite different, it鈥檚 really been publicised, people know about this, people know it鈥檚 happening and very optimistic that they鈥檒l be a big push to make people understand about this in Scotland.

听

White

What about penalties Joe?

听

Irvin

So, the penalties in London are 拢70 for an offence but I think it鈥檚 not the penalty, it鈥檚 just the likelihood of being caught, if you like, that is the thing that puts people off.听 So, a bit of education, so people understand they don鈥檛 do it in ignorance but also some proper enforcement.听 The key to that actually is the police as so busy on other things it鈥檚 very hard to get them to enforce this and what we think you need is local authorities empowered, so local authority traffic wardens, if you like, to look after this, then we鈥檒l get better enforcement we think.

听

White

Now you haven鈥檛 got everything you wanted here, there are exemptions 鈥� tell me about those.

听

Irvin

Well the one that we鈥檙e most concerned about is there鈥檚 an exemption for deliveries where delivery vehicles can stop on the pavement for up to 20 minutes.听 You can imagine people might abuse that鈥�

听

White

Yeah, I mean that鈥檚 the question isn鈥檛 it 鈥� how are you going to prove that somebody鈥檚 been there, there will be all sorts of arguments about when they arrived and how long they鈥檝e been there etc.

听

Irvin

True.听 And also, they shouldn鈥檛 be there in the first place.听 So, if there was a designated bay or whatever for deliveries that鈥檚 one thing and that鈥檚 okay and everybody would understand that but just to turn up and go 鈥� well, yeah, I鈥檓 doing a delivery 鈥� is not really on.听 So, we try 鈥� we supported amendments to this, they weren鈥檛 successful but we鈥檒l keep working on that and we鈥檒l keep working in the guidance, along with groups that represent people with disabilities, in particular, to try and improve on that and close that loophole in the future.

听

White

Why do you think it鈥檚 taken so long to get something done about a nuisance which irritates so many people and of course can be dangerous, very dangerous?

听

Irvin

Yeah, that鈥檚 a very difficult question to answer.听 There鈥檚 a lot of inertia to get over in this sort of area.听 I mean we had to campaign, along with Guide Dogs, we had private members bills running in the 鈥� a few years ago.听 We had one just to show that Scotland had the authority to do what it鈥檚 done this last week and introduce something for Scotland.听 We got an amendment to the Scotland Bill in 2016 to just clarify that Scotland had the power to do this.听 So, in transport you often have to kind of push uphill on this.听 And I guess at the bottom of it politicians have a fear of a backlash from motorists.听 And it鈥檚 one that I think is very little founded because if you look at all the polling we鈥檝e done, or guide dogs or the British Parking Association or the Local Government Association or the Scottish government actually most people support this.

听

White

There are planning issues as well though, aren鈥檛 there, because it鈥檚 鈥� people will say well there are so few places we can park, that鈥檚 what makes people do it.

听

Irvin

Part of the fundamental problem is that in the 1970s we had 20 million vehicles registered in the UK, we now have 38 million.听 So, it鈥檚 kind of not surprising that there are pressures on parking.听 Our position is that pavements are for people and people with vehicles are going to have to find ways to park in a proper way and a way that doesn鈥檛 obstruct people from getting by on the pavement.

听

White

Now one of the big concerns of visually impaired people is shared spaces, what鈥檚 your view on that?

听

Irvin

I鈥檓 not going to say there are no places where it can work.听 You know what it depends on?听 It depends on how busy the places are and it depends on how wide it is and what the space is and what the design is.听 But critically, those shared spaces which are shared with motor vehicles rarely work in my opinion.听 So, I think it was right for the government to put a pause on shared space development, as it was called, and they鈥檝e been pausing on that until they can get better guidance on it.听 So, I can see places, maybe in rural areas or not so busy, where there are maybe bicycles and people walking side by side but I think most places where you鈥檙e sharing with motor vehicles it鈥檚 very difficult if you can鈥檛 see properly.

听

White

Joe Irvin, chief executive of Living Streets UK.

听

The ban comes into force in 2021, so until then it鈥檚 still mind how you go.

听

Now talking of campaigning Hugh Huddy鈥檚 is a voice we hear from time to time on In Touch but usually in his role as a lobbyist on the rights of blind and partially sighted people.听 But his latest venture into radio is a far more personal one.听 A documentary called Hearing Homelessness broadcast here on Radio 4 and still available on 麻豆社 Sounds.听

听

It鈥檚 a haunting immersive soundscape of what people living on the street hear at night when the rest of us are warm and secure indoors.听 Hugh told me how his documentary had come about.

听

Huddy

I鈥檝e always been someone who listens to the world, I鈥檓 really interested in everyone鈥檚 relationship to sound and what it means to us.听 And I have, over the years, tripped over quite a few people on the street.听 It just happens, if you鈥檙e visually impaired you鈥檙e shore lining along the wall and then you come across someone鈥檚 feet and it鈥檚 an awkward moment, I think we can all identify with that moment.

听

White

Well I鈥檝e done it myself, walking along Regent Street in London quite often and I鈥檝e almost got to know a few of them, so I think I see where you鈥檙e going with this but carry on.

听

Huddy

Yeah, and I get chatting to people because when it鈥檚 raining and it鈥檚 cold there鈥檚 that moment where you鈥檙e thinking 鈥� should I give some money.听 And I heard something from one of the big homelessness charities that said, no, give some time.听 And I took that to heart and I sat down and just got chatting to people, just realised you can do that.听 And I think that was the moment of liberation for me, it was a moment when I suddenly realised I could be a useful person in society by being useful to other people.

听

White

And it is about sounds isn鈥檛 it, I mean you鈥檙e really starting right from beginning of the documentary.

听

Clip Hearing Homelessness

Motorway flyovers are constructed in concrete sections.听 How could the drivers know they鈥檙e hermetically sealed, unaware of the sound their tyres are making?听 Unaware, someone below may be sleeping.

听

Right from the beginning that鈥檚 the sound of me sitting underneath a Bristol flyover and that鈥檚 a place where one of the people I met, Jamila, slept for days, without even a blanket.听 So, I went there and recorded the sound of it to see what sort of effect does it have on me emotionally and the programme is a lot about emotion.

听

White

What was your goal, what were you trying to achieve with this?

听

Huddy

I鈥檓 trying to bring everyone into that sound world of what it鈥檚 like if you鈥檙e homeless and street homeless.听 So much of the sounds we hear on radio is about sounds to enjoy, so wildlife and things that are beautiful and things we can all appreciate.听 I wanted to look at sound from the other side of the coin, so sound when it is perhaps dangerous, when it鈥檚 emotionally difficult and when you鈥檙e immersed in it and it actually defines your life.

听

White

I used the word immersive in the introduction to it but you 鈥� and that was very deliberate wasn鈥檛 it, you recorded it in a particular way, can you explain?

听

Huddy

Yes, it鈥檚 recorded in binaural audio, which is very high quality and very tiny microphones that you put in your ear.听 So, instead of listening to the sound through ear buds, which lots of people will be used to using, they鈥檙e actually microphones and they record from the perspective of your own hearing.听 It enables you to record as if you鈥檙e 鈥� well 鈥� there.听 I mean that might sound 鈥� whoa, what鈥檚 going on here.听 If you put headphones on then it means that the little speaker that the headphone is made of is pretty well exactly where the microphone recorded the sound, which means the signals arrive at your ear and cause your brain to interpret the sounds as if you鈥檙e actually there.听 And that鈥檚 the powerful aspect of binaural or surround sound recording techniques.

听

White

I was going to ask you 鈥� in the encounters you鈥檇 had beforehand, before you did the programme, I was wondering how you were treated, this person who came along and trampled through their small worldly goods and fell over them?

听

Huddy

Yeah, I accidentally kicked somebody鈥檚 money box over once, you might have done that yourself鈥�

听

White

Yeah, gone right through it.

听

Huddy

鈥 felt so bad about doing that and I was bent down trying to pick the money up and someone passing me said 鈥� don鈥檛 bother doing that.听 And I thought, what on earth is happening to us, I鈥檓 trying to help someone.听 And I thought that this is an interesting way of just sort of overcoming my own visual impairment and being seen by other people as constantly sort of just struggling along all the time.听 And I took this as an opportunity just to turn into someone who was useful, someone who鈥檚 interesting to other people.听 I don鈥檛 think being visually impaired makes you uniquely a good fit to doing this kind of stuff but I found it seemed to and I heard from someone, they said 鈥� you know, the thing about your white stick is it鈥檚 very disarming, we don鈥檛 feel threatened by you, so we feel we can talk to you.听 And I think that that really does come out in the programme. 听I had conversations that were so intimate with people I鈥檇 never met before and I think it helped the programme speak about these people and their lives, it let me in.

听

Clip Hearing Homelessness

You know I think when you鈥檙e asleep your body knows that and that鈥檚 why it shakes yourself into a wake mode, they do, because the body 鈥� it does it without even bloody realising.

听

[Indistinct words], the body鈥檚 on edge.

听

Like you go into a deep sleep your body鈥檚 [indistinct words], you know what I mean.

听

[Bottle smashing]

听

And I think also I couldn鈥檛 see people鈥檚 facial expressions so perhaps I just motored on with a conversation even if they were given me please don鈥檛 talk to me about this and I carried on but I did it in a disarming way and so they just probably told me things that perhaps they ordinarily wouldn鈥檛 or felt, you know, maybe he is interested.听 And I really was deeply interested in finding out what their auditory experience was of living on the streets.

听

White

And did you come back to some people because they were telling you an interesting story or鈥�?

听

Huddy

That was really hard.听 What I discovered was people, street homeless, they recognise you and these stories can often be very different the next time you meet, so there鈥檚 a lack of coherence.听 And that鈥檚 what making this programme actually very difficult because this is what we discovered, memory seems to be bound in in the chaos of the street and therefore memory is chaotic as well, people鈥檚 memory of what happened to them within the last month even is quite chaotic.听 And so, it鈥檚 not the same sort of biographical memory you get talking to someone else.

听

White

And presumably, to be frank, some of them will be on using various substances, some will have had a fair bit to drink?

听

Huddy

Yes, I think probably most people I spoke to were on a very strong substance, yes, of one kind of another and my responsibility that I felt was not to walk away.

听

White

And on the specific business of the sounds, were they the sounds you expected, what were the surprises perhaps that you got?

听

Huddy

It鈥檚 that beauty can be inside out.听 Something like listening to a street cleaning machine 鈥� they immediately generate a sense within me of I need to really work out what to do now because this could be a messy incident if I don鈥檛 judge this right.听 Now that鈥檚 something we experience every day.听 And I was interested to know that I shared that experience with people who were homeless because if you鈥檙e asleep and you hear something like that coming and especially if your senses are dulled by having to sort of听 medicate, is the term people often use, against the cold because they鈥檙e sleeping in such unpleasant conditions, that your reaction times are not the same and you have the sound of these machines around you at 5 o鈥檆lock in the morning.听 And breaking glass, I mean I鈥檝e not heard so much breaking glass in all my life going out recording this, the streets are alive with the sound of smashing bottles at 5 o鈥檆lock in the morning and I didn鈥檛 realise that that could have a kind of interest to me and it made me realise that this is the physical manifestation of the difficulty that people are actually facing.

听

Clip Hearing Homelessness

[Breaking bottles]

听

White

And the sound was a big part of what people talked to you about, I would have expected people to be talking about the cold and the fact that, as you said, they are unpleasant conditions and so forth, but they talked to you a lot about the sounds that they heard.

听

Huddy

I have to let you into a secret, that was about after two and a half hours of talking.听 Most people don鈥檛 feel comfortable about talking about sound.听 When I pitched this programme to the 麻豆社 if I鈥檇 only realised that getting people to talk honestly about sound was a really difficult thing to do鈥�

听

White

But I鈥檓 feeling really surprised at that, explain a bit鈥�

听

Huddy

I think most people don鈥檛 under鈥� when you say what it鈥檚 like on the street, what do you hear, the conversation is 鈥� well, it鈥檚 horrible 鈥� and that鈥檚 it.听 And so, you need to develop a relationship with that person, talking about their life and about what鈥檚 important to them to be able to say why it is broken bottles is horrible or why the sound of street machines at 5.00 am is affecting them and it鈥檚 because they鈥檙e trying to get some sleep then because that鈥檚 actually when the light鈥檚 coming in the summertime and when they feel safer to sleep and it鈥檚 actually the worst time to be trying to get to sleep when the clubs have emptied out.听 So, getting people to talk about that stuff you have to get quite into a conversation and I didn鈥檛 want to just talk superficially about sound because I think that would have been voyeuristic.

听

White

What鈥檚 your lasting impression of the experience?

听

Huddy

I鈥檓 only just starting to understand how you can use sound to understand other people鈥檚 lives.听 And the visual impairment I鈥檝e got, it enables you to get an understanding of the world from someone else鈥檚 perspective but you both share this relationship with what you hear.听 And I do feel, I鈥檓 really pleased about this, that I managed to escape from the stereotypes, I don鈥檛 feel I got ensnared in any of the stereotypes about being a blind person.

听

White

Is there something you鈥檝e taken away from this experience, something you鈥檝e perhaps learnt about yourself maybe?

听

Huddy

Yeah, I think so many things.听 I think it鈥檚 this relationship about being in the environment.听 You don鈥檛 have to be able to see it to be fully in it.听 The physical and sound relationship that I was able to be within and being guide through it by people who were homeless, who weren鈥檛 visually impaired, it did, in many ways, help release me from this idea that you do have to be able to see to have a 100% deep experience with the world.

听

White

Hugh Huddy鈥檚 documentary is called Hearing Homelessness, it鈥檚 a marvellous listen.

听

And that鈥檚 it for today.听 We welcome your comments, as always, you can leave a voice message on 0161 8361338.听 Email intouch@bbc.co.uk or go to our website, that鈥檚 bbc.co.uk/intouch where you can find an extended podcast of tonight鈥檚 programme with more of our interview with Hugh Huddy.听 From me, Peter White, producer Lee Kumutat and the team, goodbye.