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The Indus Valley civilization: The Seals
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Message 1.Â
Posted by Tas (U11050591) on Wednesday, 16th June 2010
Does any one know if they have yet decoded the Seals of Mohenjo Daro, the main city of the Indus Valley Civilization, reputed to be perhaps the oldest in the World? I think it dates from over 3,000 B.C.
Has any one found an Indian 'Rosetta Stone?'
TasLink to this forum: The Indus Valley civilization: The Seals
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Message 2
Posted by LairigGhru (U14051689) on Wednesday, 16th June 2010
Apparently not. Take a look at this:
Link to this forum: The Indus Valley civilization: The Seals
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Message 3
Posted by Priscilla (U14315550) on Wednesday, 16th June 2010
The site referred to is interesting and based on recent reports that appear to offer no new knowledge to what has been known for many years.
The Kot Diji site is by far the most primitive and few seals found there. The 'Language' of the ideograms on the seals is also impressed on fired clay artifacts. They are fascinating I have spent long poring over them - several well illustrated books depict them, Tas. If you are interested, when I get back to my library, I'll get the entire range e-mailed to you. They are indeed fascinating. There have been recent claims about what they signify but not the result of in depth scholarship, and sadly no Rosetta stone. Though possibly related to ancient Vedic symbols.
Apart from depicted animals that no longer roam the great Indian plains, there are abstract symbols like nordic runes and what must be a many armed Shiva. The horned beasts are interesting - especially what appears to be a unicorn but surely that is only perpesctive in well drawn silhouette.
I keep meaning to delve into the seal collection in Bahrain - claimed there as a local development but to my mind a result of distant Indus valley trading. The ancient stone wharf at Lorelie(?)... in India, anyway.. I have only seen pictures and forget the name of the place - bear witness to sea trading of some substance and the large ships shown on seals appear seaworthy.
The small picture show on the Harrapan website reveals little of the incredible remains of this extraordinary civilisation, its breadth and size of the urban sights uncovered.
My favourite place is the little visited inland wharf at Mohenjaro Daro where bullock carts trundled goods to the Indus. The river is now several miles away from the commercial area. The residential suburbs are a mile away with a 'four lane' cart rutted main street with shops and even public toilets. The comprehensive drainage system of the city is, of course, very well documented.
I ramble; sorry, Tas. You asked about the language used on the seals and my eyes lit up. The equally interesting mystery is exactly how their glossy faience surface was made. Not an easy process.
Regards, P.Link to this forum: The Indus Valley civilization: The Seals
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Message 4
Posted by Nik (U1777139) on Thursday, 17th June 2010
Mohenjo Daro. Hmmm... I have read reports of Russian scientific teams reporting radioactivity in the area (uranium deposits maybe?). Is it because of that that subsequently the Pakistan governent has chosen to close the site to the general public? Who knows?
Harappa and Mohenjo Daro are really extremely interesting cases of really very ancient civilisations and have to be studied more and more openly too.Link to this forum: The Indus Valley civilization: The Seals
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Message 5
Posted by Tas (U11050591) on Thursday, 17th June 2010
Priscilla, Nik, LG,
How very interesting! I went to the website given and learned new things.
I do not think this civilization has received as much attention as the Ancient Egyptian. Probably because there is not yet any way to comprehend those Seals.
TasLink to this forum: The Indus Valley civilization: The Seals
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Message 6
Posted by Priscilla (U14315550) on Thursday, 17th June 2010
Nik, that site is in a flood plain and very flat. I doubt there is any installation of note within miles. It is very large and difficult to supervise. The last time I took some other foreign visitors we had to apply and received protection. One of the armed guards was most helpful and surprisingly knowledgeable about the sites - when asked how come, he said that after accompanying several groups he had become interested and listened in. There are at least 180 other sites and I fear many are being rifled for saleable pieces. Some of these I have seen on sale in a remote part of Balochistan.
Tas, I suspect that the writing will actually be about the name of the owner - somewhat like the catouche from which the first Rosetta stone clue was deduced - these perhaps reveal name and family based on tribe/caste/family/honoured totem with many common objects impressed with them. These people were traders, so I assume the cotton bales were likewise marked. We know they used colour widely - for instance one of the shops is a dyers with the large vats still in place.
They also had an excellent sense of number - the cube weights nlarge in an interesting mathematical sequence, and for 'board' games - somewhat like '9 men morris' tetrahedron dice were used. There is a great sense of order in the the cities' grid system layouts with subtle use of slopes for the drains to be effective and there is always a sense of space and place. Artisans, government/religious, trading and residential areas are set apart. There is no sense of huddled crowding anywhere. How sad it is that we are ulikely to know much more about this most interesting ancient river civilisation.
Regards, P.Link to this forum: The Indus Valley civilization: The Seals
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Message 7
Posted by Tas (U11050591) on Thursday, 17th June 2010
Hi Priscilla,
Unfortunately, I have never visited Mohenjo Daro or Harrappa. I did visit Taxila though. It was a very interesting archeological ruin. They even had what was purported to be a University. There were very small cells for the student, priests?
Not unlike the cells in a monastery, although much smaller. There were many other things in the museum. They had some scenes from the life of Buddha, done in relief on stone work.
However, I am most forgetful. I do recall the people of the village nearby selling valuable artifacts, either from the ruins of the site or from the forgers in their village.
I had some American friends and they wanted me to tell them if the artifacts were real or fake. I said, "They look realistic, any way, and they are being sold for a song. You can buy them now and decide that later."
TasLink to this forum: The Indus Valley civilization: The Seals
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Message 8
Posted by Sambista (U4068266) on Thursday, 17th June 2010
Tas :
Scenes from the life of Buddha can't, surely, be contemporary with the sites? Isn't Siddartha dated c500 BCE?Link to this forum: The Indus Valley civilization: The Seals
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Message 9
Posted by Tas (U11050591) on Friday, 18th June 2010
Hi Urungal,
I am sorry. I may be mixing up two distinct periods of Indian Civilization here:
Mohenjo-Daro and Harappa are ancient cities that date from the Indus Valley Civilization. Taxila is much later, probably from a couple of hundred years after Buddha. Perhaps shorty after Alexander's invasion, because there were certainly influences of the Greeks in there, as far as I can recall.
Perhaps Priscilla or someone else more conversant with ancient archeology may be able to discuss this much better than I.
I am simply telling you what a I saw.
TasLink to this forum: The Indus Valley civilization: The Seals
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Message 10
Posted by Prof Muster (U14387921) on Friday, 18th June 2010
Dear PRISCILLA and TAS.
Has anyone succesfully attemptted to deciffre
the Indian Harrapa Clay tabletts ??
YES but the experts don't believe him
Sounds familiar ??? I found Atlantis,in Aden, but the Experts...
Prof. of Ancient Asiatic languages eg " LUWISH"
formerly at the Univ. of Leiden, now at the Univ. of Amsterdam, Professor JAN BEST,
Earlier he wrote the Bestseller: Where Homer once went, oh...Sorry; Book:" Following Homer".)
(in Dutch: Homerus achterna."
In which he discussed the right transcription of the several existing Phaistos-Disks as beiin Land Tax indexes from the Kings NESTOR, NEOPTOLEMUS and NELEUS who held their trritories in Crete & Koossos in FIEF, from the Assyrian emperor Salmanasser-3
The case was that the earlier-Greek island-pirate-tribes continually fought civil wars inbetween them.
The cunnng diplomats Asurpanibal-2 & Salmanasser-3
offered naval-protection if only the greek states would pay tribute to the assyrian empire a sort of official" protection money.
These treaties of mutual assistance caused the firdt and second worldwars. But Even when ALL of Greece was in fiefdom from Assur,
the greeks themselves( exept from the Kings treasurers) were not aware of it.
To remind his( Informal-)subjects of their annual harvest payments to Assur they were handed out reminder documents such as the Phaistos Disk(-s)
Other( Assyrian-picto-) Disks outside Crete may have been discovered but did not reach Press-level media-attention.
However the text in the Phaistos Disks are not Assyrian and not even Greek but Luwish.
Now Prof. jan Best has attempted to transcribe the Harrappa Disks/Plates aswell and LO. . .
they also apperd to be not indian nor greek but. . . LUWISH.
Naturally his rival colleguages who thoght otherwise, were the first to attack him as a spoilsport and refuse to believe him.
As for proof, I got this from just browsing on his name have not had the quality time yet to parouse his publication about the subject.
Indeed LUWISH is not my field
it is an unintresting provincial-dialect language that most philologists left alone,
which is the reason that when factual ignorant they could not contest Prof. Jan best's findings.Link to this forum: The Indus Valley civilization: The Seals
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Message 11
Posted by Prof Muster (U14387921) on Friday, 18th June 2010
The age of the Harappa civilisation dating from 3.000 bc or even 2.000 bc may be falsh
The indian villages were floodded by the Pre-Indus parallell-River of Saravati.
Great Flood mostly accompany Meteoric rains
My theory is that according to greek Mythology, the Moon called Hephestus/Hephaitos fell to Earth twice.
Once in 1055 bc and last in 855 bc, which ofcourse
isued the floods of Deucalion(="THE-Flood") and of Ogygos(= the Lesser-Deluge.)
Today ofcourse we would call a deluge as a TSUNAMI.
Despite Plato's Atlanis Dialogue(a cunning Forgery !)in which he asserts -wrongly- just for dramatic effects, that the Greeks only knew ONE great Flood and the Egyptian many others.
There is a Greek List of annual Tsunamies( called High tide rises of the PONTUS- Sea.) and another List of recurrent Great'Tsunamies' with as with American hurricains female names.
I have only recoverred part of the Greek Great Tsunami-List The First referred to in 1055 bc is named Deucalion, the 2nd the Flood of King David( 1005 bc.)the one of 955 bc was named the Flood of Andromeda, the 4th The flood of Enki % Enlil, finally in 855 bc when Hoon hit the Hawaiian-isles
this was named the Flood of OGYGOS(= in Greek Myth Ogygos equates is a guise of King Amenhotep-3
TIMELINE of Arriyan Invasions is wrong.
Socalled vulcanologists pinpoint the Eruption of Volcano-Santorini/Theras at 1650 bc or even 1450 or 1250 bc.
But according to the much despized Velikovkian Timeline the LAST Eruption took place in 855 bc.
So the Minoan Civilisation did NOT end in 1250 bc but in 855 bc. By a great Flood/Tidalwave conflagration/ CATACLYSM as Plato said in his Atlantis Dialogue( supposedly 10.000 bc. ! ! !
Therefore,
My Timeline-rule- of- Thumb-contention is that when floodded the Harappa/indian civilisation can only have ended in 855 bc and NOT in 1500 or 1200 bc.
About the general-age of the ( Harappa-)Indian civilisation, there has been much, fabulation. but the first written proof only exists from 300 bc when Sri-Valmiki re-re-translated the RAMA- YANA or Ram-Jan from older now lost manuscript into ' modern' Sanskrit.
Understanably the original Toponym Villagenames are non existent anymore so the language archaeologist(= Philologers) have to take a lucky-guess to the first original names.
WHO were the Ariyans and how much " Invasion did they "?
This should be not difficult Tag along with my discovery:
ARIYAN is a transcription from Egyptian HOR/HARAKTE
RAMA is the criminal" invader'" who wants to kill his brother RAVANA over the dishonouring of the half-sister SITA( by them both but Rama got there first.)
In Historical" real life" Rama was the Egyptian King Kamoses, his brother Ravana, was Ahmose and thus their disputed sister can be no-other than( watch this !) SITA- KAMOSE.
NOW the'OFFICIAL CANON' HAS IT THAT THESE PERSONS IN BOTH CASES LIVEd AROUND THE GENERIC YEAR OF; 1550 bc.
But in the Revised Chronology they lived around 1055 bc, when just after the Tsunami-of deucalion the re-fertilised Indian shores lay bare for rapid Egyptian & Greek colonization .( eg Malabar Karnataka MYSORE etc. PUNJAB may have been the original PUNT/Phoenicia where the Israelian Phoinicia is claerly a very late colony.
Together with the Egyptian invaders came the Sun-Cult of Shamas/ Suriya/ Brahman.plainly the Egyptian God RAH.(= b-)RA(-m)
Moreover the Mahabaratta and inserted Ramajan may not have occurred in present India at all but somewhat further to the West( in South- Araby.)
SRI- LANKA is/means the HOLY- LAND, CRETE in Greek
was colonized by proto-Greeks from (Middle-)india.
before 855 bc when the ( very-open.)Isthmus of Suez had not sedimented yet as it has now..
Meaning that the greek colonists took the Ramajana with them 3.000 Km/miles to the North( not 3.000 years in the North as some antropologists and archaeologists have fabulated.)
RAVANA's name in greek is ATHAMAS but that is another story.
Point is that the origin of the Hindu/Brahman Faith as -directly-comming from Egypt/tian colonists, is obscured by later( draviian/ or Pakrit to Sanscrit- Language changes
The Egyptian themselves recorded that they colonised the Whole of India( =initially.)after a great Flood which didn't effect Egypt because it was land-locked.
The military leader of the Egyptian(-Horite/Arian-)invasions was a woman quite well known by the greek name', PANDORA in Egyptian: AMOSE- NEFERTI_- MERI-AMUN.
This Amose-Neferti- Meri-Amun, subsequently became an indian Goddess by the name: KAMUNDA
Which transcribed means: "The Green-Goddess from Egypt."Thus the Green-Tara.
Her Daughter: SITA/ SITA-KAMOSE, also 'dabbled' in that field by the greek name PYRRHA meaning White-Fire ( because, probably her egyptian-Field-Marshall's uniform showed white in the sunlight.)
Thus in India she became the White Goddes from Egypt: the White Tara.
WHO WOULD HAVE GUESSED THAT MOST 'Demons" WERE FEMALE ? ?
The Punician " BEELZEBUB " is egyptian for ' Field-Marshall'.the Rank of Field-marshall was denoted by a collar with 5 Golden bees/honeyflies.
That of a General by ( several)strings with golden beads
CONCLUSION,
INDIAN was an egyptian colony from 1055 bc until its dissolution about 855 bc when Salmanasser-3 createde new Assur wrestled from it's nominal egyptian overlord.
Because Salmanasser-3 issued a pollicy of Damnatio Memoriae about Egyptian Civilisation efforts in India, most historians if not all, are fully ignorant about any ( early 18th Dynasty-)egyptian millitary presence in india.
One would think that with somany Fired Clay objects theForests in India would have been completely denuded and eroded, as a cause of human extinction, but around 1000 bc in volcanic circumstances enough nafta or bitumen must have been present to preferr that above deforesting.
Clearly the demise of the Mohenjo-Daro and Harappa civilisations*(as egyptian military colonies.)must have been the result of the GREAT FLOOD named the TARA-MAKA- YANA( I forget the right wording.)Caused by the 2nd-Moon collision with Earth in 855 bc. Ending effective Egyptian Rule in india-proper, and thus the memory thereof.
A lame argument is that no Egyptian artefacts papyrus or weapons were (ever?) found in India, if they had a bad experiance with each
other, these artefacts would have been quickly demonised and melted!Link to this forum: The Indus Valley civilization: The Seals
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Message 12
Posted by Priscilla (U14315550) on Friday, 18th June 2010
To Tas abd Urm - I wrote this on the cusp at midnight last so am a tad late in posting.
Taxila - an area of several square miles is not, as far as I am aware, a site with Indus valley roots. The oldest part, Sirkar has Vedic origins. I found very interesting bits of baked clay animals in the archaeological debris there.
Later cities, post Alexander and of the famous Gandhara phase has Buddhas and stupa decor in Greek style and drape. The cells you refer to, Tas are in the hill monastery ruin of Julien a couple of miles north of the museum. That has a complex of cells etc - and burn marks on the walls after its destruction by invading northern tribes. The site editor will not allow me to use the name of the tribe because it sounds Germanic. OMG.
And as Urm says, this complex is much later than the Indus Valley people who were of 2300-1800 BC(approx)at the apex of their splendour.
As for fakes, yes the market is rife with them and they are not difficult to copy and age.
Regards, P.Link to this forum: The Indus Valley civilization: The Seals
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Message 13
Posted by Priscilla (U14315550) on Friday, 18th June 2010
To Prof M.
Ah well it seems you think that scholars of repute have got it wrong here too. Either that or you have.. and that along with a shift lock problem which you might work on first to make your alternate history posts ostensibly more readable.Link to this forum: The Indus Valley civilization: The Seals
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Message 14
Posted by Prof Muster (U14387921) on Saturday, 19th June 2010
Dear, Priscilla & Brig
Shift-Lock is named Caps-lock on my keyboard,
I also hit the Esc button by exident much.
I am nearsighted by Alzheimer's Cataract.
One Eye was operATED ON UNSUCCESFULLY SO i WAIT ANOTHER TEN YEARS FOR TECHNOLOGY TO BE REALLY FLAWLESS, Damned on Apple Keyboards the caplock key was lit Green when in use accidentally.
No. the point I make is that, with translated Myths that the translator made two extended Myths from a shorter original, exactly the opposite of the Roman/LATIN COMPILERS.
Therefore we ignore that the Myth of Atlantis and the Myth of INO's abduction ar5e sequels
In Plato's Atlantis the Atlantean King Epimetheus is named as Athamas in another Myth which was separated to make more Chapters
The Isvaku Dynasty of India was however the same as the Early 18-th Egyptian Dynasty.
If you care I will print the comparision.Link to this forum: The Indus Valley civilization: The Seals
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Message 15
Posted by Prof Muster (U14387921) on Thursday, 8th July 2010
I see that my contention that during the Harappa civilisation the Egyptians invaded India in the guise of the ARYANS(= Horians.) did not impress you?!
The ISHVAKU Dynasty( the most written about indian Dynasty) was nonother that the eitheenth-Egyptian Dynasty who invade India about dd.1055 bc.
City names as OUDH /Hyderabad /Mysore /Karnatakka/
remind of original egyptian names introduced in India. The socalled Sri-lanka story of Rama & Sita
did not occurr on ' indian' soil' at all but in southern Araby.
RAMA, was the egyptian King Kamose, his wicked brother the Rashaksas, RAVANA was the egyptian King Ahmose, SITA was their halfsister and a female generalissimo in egyptian history by the name Sita-Kamose.
(She also was made the War-goddess of the Moabites, by the not suprising name of:' SITAA')
SITA's sister Suparnahka was another female egyptian generalissimo: Amose, Neferti Meri-Amun.
In the Egyptian Storyversion of the RAMAJANA, SITA first married Rama and than Married RAVANA because Ravana was a jolly man and Rama a stern man.
In the Battle between Rama & Ravana the latter had ten Heads which ofcourse every storyteller knows, stood for the TEN Cities that Ravana headed
RAVANA etymologically ,originally read: RAS- DANA
The DANAiiTES were changed into the DAVANA's and the Assyrians that they fought became the ASVINS or ASURA's.
Videha originally read Dena
which is still the present name of his rashaksas empire: RAS - ADEN.
Ofcourse the Scholars of Indian ancient history could not have guessed that because I just found this out.
If I left you with impossible or unanswered questions here, don't hesitate to ask !
Sincerely,Link to this forum: The Indus Valley civilization: The Seals
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