麻豆社

Liam:

is all this heartache and sacrifice worth it?

In someway, it was worth the heartache and sacrifice for the Afghan
War Front...

=Dennis Junior=

Liam:

Is this war making Afghanistan and the world a safer place?

I am getting very doubtful about the War in Afghanistan is making the world safer; Since, the ongoing violence is making me skeptical....

=Dennis Junior=

I feel desperately sorry for all our brave service people putting their lives and health on the line.

But the War is illegal. We shouldn't be there.

The longer this war goes on the more sickened we will be by the constant parade of hearses driving through that small village in Wiltshire.

Our young soldiers are being sent into minefields not a proper war.
This is not what they were trained to do and it is heartbreaking knowing they will go out each day and ask themselves if they feel lucky.

I despise our politicians for getting sucked into this without a proper exit strategy.

Our boys are dying on behalf of a corrupt uncontrollable state where in the end withdrawal will be the only option.

Are this government only hanging on until they know they can pass it on to the next government? And what will their exit strategy be?

Wars hardly ever turn out the way people would like. Historians write books and pundits pontificate on TV and college students have lively dicussions. Mostly, everyone goes on with the lives. The British spent 44 months, the longest battle of WWII, slogging around and dying in Burma. Look at Burma today. War is about killing, a nation can't send soldiers off to war and then bemoan their loss. You can't smell death and fear over a TV. People don't die in vain, they just die.

Liam:

Or are those lives being lost in vain?

I am very much conflicted on this issue; Since, the lives were becoming lost in vain....Since, the War In Afghanistan will not end for a long time....


=Dennis Junior=

(THE CHANCE FOR PEACE)

(QUESTION): And as lives continue to be lost - on all sides - with grim regularity, to pose some serious questions: is all this heartache and sacrifice worth it?

(ANSWER): This is a War Of Blood For Oil / Resources and Markets, and who is going to get the oil not the (U.K.) United Kingdom, not the (EU) European Union, Not The Russian Federation, Not The Peoples Republic of China, this is European Blood, for Empire Oil, Resources and Markets.

(QUESTION): Is this war making Afghanistan and the world a safer place?

(ANSWER): On or about (18th) September the night of the New Moon in that month the entire Global Community may have its answer, will or will that not be the date of the promised Pre-emptive Nuclear Attack upon the Shi-ite Persian Republic of Iran be made by Israel, that attack is promised by Prime Minister of Israel, Benyamin 鈥淏iBi鈥� Netanyahu, sooner than later, and were are the products of that nuclear war going to end up in the atmosphere, and where is it going to come down how much environmental damage to World Community will it cause, how much hate 鈥淲e Hate You To The Bottom Of Our Souls鈥�!

(QUESTION): Or are those lives being lost in vain? The lives that have been lost in vain have been those killed in the Islamic World, (1400::14) Fourteen-Hundred to Fourteen, just in Gaza with (400) Four-Hundred Children, that is the very tip of the lives lost in vain.

(U.S. Empire T-Bill鈥檚 / Terrorist Bill鈥檚)


The real question that should be asked is why does Europe continue to support the slaughter by the purchase of Empire (U.S. Empire T-Bills / Terrorists Bills), the European Community can鈥檛 simply wash its collective hands and say we didn鈥檛 know, or we didn鈥檛 support what was happening. Can European Community collectively do a better job of handing the Middle East thru peaceful methods than the Empire with its European Funded Military Machine, and the answer is YES! The European Community can not walk away blameless, when it could have turned off the funding and stopped the carnage by ending the purchase of (U.S. Empire T-Bills / Terrorist Bill鈥檚), and war and not investing in the European Community for Peace and Prosperity in the (21st) Century.

(Dwight D. Eisenhower)

"I like to believe that people in the long run are going to do more to promote peace than our governments. Indeed, I think that people want peace so much that one of these days government had better get out of the way and let them have it." --Dwight D. Eisenhower

In his January 17, 1961 farewell message to the nation, Dwight Eisenhower said: "In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex."

"The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist."

No people on earth can be held, as a people, to an enemy, for all humanity shares the common hunger for peace and fellowship and justice. No nation鈥檚 security and well-being can be lastingly achieved in isolation but only in effective co-operation with fellow-nations. (The Chance for Peace 1953).

HERCULE TRIATHLON SAVINIEN

"But what we were hopefully able to do was add something to our audience's understanding of the conflict."

But isn't the "conflict" somewhat enigmatic? Originally Afghanistan was targeted because of the "terrorist element" (Osama bin Laden) but, as in Iraq, the flavour has changed as many times as the question "should we be there?" has been asked. We have "forced" so called democratic elections on a country which appears not to want such western "falsehoods".

Who knows what Afghanistan wants? Certainly the majority of Afghans will not know until all the troops are withdrawn, and what will happen if what does happen is not approved by the USA?

. At 00:49am on 27 Aug 2009, Hercule_Savien_IV wrote:
"...This is a War Of Blood For Oil / Resources and Markets..."
================

Absolutely - I only hope we can control access to all that Afghan oil.

I suspect that if the coalition pulled out, the Taliban returned to power and the Al Qaeda training camps very publically returned to their grim business we may well decide that we should have stuck with it.

But then of course it will be too late.

Would withdrawal mean an end to slaughter in Afghanistan? Of course not.

Iraq; Afghanistan. Two conflicts which cannot be fought as wars ie set piece battles. Yet, our generals still stick to the text book. And our troops were committed whilst we all blinked.

One of the architects of the 'crusades' was Blair - may he be forgiven - who has never been brought to account for either conflict but was driven by his personal belief that interference in another state was justified before his god in the name of western democracy. His naive belief that others (ourselves) can do the bleeding and dying which is present at the birth of all changes of government, no matter its form, beggers belief.

The scramble for our own democracy was a bitter, bloody afair. Didn't he know that?

Left to themselves, would the Afghans embark on a war to establish democracy, or would they settle for their own type of government? We shall never know for we are too blinkered into thinking we must do it all for them. They can't do it alone.

Moreover, we have been hoodwinked into believing we must do it for them.

And now the propaganda is 'We cannot leave with the job undone. The country would fall back into chaos.' So?

If chaos is what the Afghans want then so be it. But it is they who must settle their own destiny. They must do their own plotting and scheming and persuading and bleeding and dying for whatever cause suits their preferred way of life.

Blair was wrong, wrong, wrong. But I don't remember discussing this.

Like the rest of the country - I blinked; and we were in.

I would have liked your sojourn to have covered some of these points.

#10

So what you are saying is that a sovereign state has no right to conduct its affairs in whatever way it chooses? We were told lies about Saddam Hussein, and we also know that the regime change in Iraq has deprived women of hard fought for rights given to them by the late dictator. This sector of the Middle East has hardly changed in three or more centuries and does not choose to conform to westernised pigeon hole politics. It has learned how to blow with the wind. There is a strategic value for the US that concerns oil and energy pipelines which is much more relevant than regime change or training camps.

We do not know who actually was behind 9/11; there has been no criminal investigation; there are major flaws in the Commission Report which attempted to piece together the evidence of that Tuesday morning. 9/11 may superficially be the perfect reason to justify almost any action in Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia or almost anywhere else in the Middle East but a more profound assessment of the past two decades may deliver a very much different strategy towards peace.

I've been a support of the afghan war form day 1, i feel its a mistake to associate with the iraq debacle as tere wer always clear goals.

Al qaida were being sheltered by a soverign government that was not only harbouring them, but encouraging them and allowing them to combat train potential terrorists.

Given that situation i believe the west had to do something.

However, in recent months as evidence of the coalition supported governments ultra-negative attitude towards women & homosexuals have become apparent, and the levels of alleged corruption debated, i'm becoming increasingly convinced that a secular country like britain has absolutely no place propping up a corrupt theocratic government that seems more like the taliban the more closely you examine their actions.

If the people of afghanistan want to live in a theocracy, i have no problem with that.

It is not remotely appropriate for britain to help create or maintain that theocracy.

#11

Why do you call me 'you'? You have done this before.

I am 'Walrus.'

Simple. (Meerkat noise.)

Get what you can while you can but don't report anything real as Michael Yon did and look how the MOD (Masters of Deceit) treated him. You lot aren't even fit to clean Yons shoes let alone call yourselves reporters.

@12. Hi One_Marble_Left wrote:

"We were told lies about Saddam Hussein.... There is a strategic value for the US that concerns oil and energy pipelines which is much more relevant than regime change or training camps. We do not know who actually was behind 9/11; there has been no criminal investigation; there are major flaws in the Commission Report which attempted to piece together the evidence of that Tuesday morning. 9/11 may superficially be the perfect reason to justify almost any action in Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia or almost anywhere else in the Middle East but a more profound assessment of the past two decades may deliver a very much different strategy towards peace."

I agree. Not only were we told lies about Saddam Hussein but also 9/11.
Strangely Saddam Hussein was once an ally of the USA and OBL was working for the USA (up until 9/11 according to FBI Whistleblower, Sibel Edmonds).

Therefore the whole justification for going into Afghanistan wasn't 9/11, it was Gas pipelines! For Iraq it was Oil.

(as an aside, now the CIA are making problems for the socialist government in Bolivia. Why? Not oil this time but Lithium - required for electric car batteries - Bolivia has the majority of the world's supply of Lithium!)

The MOD has a Mission as a "Force for Good in the World" - they way I see it at the moment, they are just reinforcing America's Energy Ambitions!

Whether you think we should be there or not the war in Afghanistan is not illeagl it was the subject of a UN resolution and it is not about oil there is none there. Ignorance puts IOraq and Afghanisatn together we were already in Afghanistan when we invaded Iraq which was what we shouldn't have done had we not the Taliban would not have been able to regroup to the extent they did.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

Just to echo the thoughts of #17 we are talking pipelines through Afghanistan. Whether there is economic oil and gas in Afghanistan remains to be seen.

I think it is also appropriate to consider the vast number of countries that the USA imports its crude oil from including Canada, Venezuela, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Iraq and well over ninety others. Obviously spreading their market place widely has an effect on price negotiation, as well as ensuring they have stockpiles in the event of the unforeseen.

It also indicates where they have "diplomatic" influence, and lobbying power. It is often said that power is not about ordering someone what to do, it is about not ordering them what to do. Strangely the US political scene has not studied history sufficiently well to know that being despised and hated are preventable by peaceful rather than warmongering or threatening means.

Afghanistan will never be changed by force. The UK lost a huge number of troops in Afghanistan in the nineteenth century to no avail - it is pity that we continue to throw young lives away in pursuit of the unattainable.

"It didn't mean though that our editorial independence was compromised - we spoke freely to soldiers of many different ranks, and apart from things which may have jeopardised security, nothing was off limits."

Being embedded does frame things in a certain way, but its not the biggest problem. Reporting on the war is in general framed in a certain way. All of the 麻豆社 reporting operates within a complete assumption of UK/US good intentions. That being firmly established, the debate is then safely confined to topics such as "are we using the right strategy" etc.

This is in strong contrast to the reporting on the military adventures of official enemies, e.g. Russia. Suddenly the implicit acceptance of goodwill and altruism vanishes and reporters start actually analysing things again and questioning intentions.

For example in the case of the US siege of Fallujah the 麻豆社 ran with stories like "Fixing The Problem of Fallujah"



Compare and contrast with 麻豆社 reporting on the Russian assault on Grozy.


As with Fallujah, the civilians were warned to leave the city, however, unlike the reporting on Fallujah, the 麻豆社 reporter openly questions things. He said...

"Why should they go? By what right was the Russian army forcing them from their homes? So Russia could destroy what it itself dismissed as a handful of terrorists?"

Can you seriously imagine a 麻豆社 reporter ever saying this about Fallujah or any US/UK military operation?

"Why should they go? By what right was the US army forcing them from their homes? So the US could destroy what it itself dismissed as a handful of terrorists?"

In the unlikely event of a 麻豆社 journalist writing such things, they would never make it onto the 麻豆社 website.

Being embedded is not the issue. If you can just report with the same voracity and distrust on allied military operations as with Russian military operations it will not matter whether you are embedded with troops in Afghanistan or sitting in a cafe in Islington with a laptop.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

Serious Questions:
is all this heartache and sacrifice worth it? Is this war making Afghanistan and the world a safer place? Or are those lives being lost in vain?

....On individual level; for those who are convinced that their lives (deaths) might bring a positive change; YES, its worth it, i think.

On a broader scale....NO! this war or any other war across the globe is not doing anything to make the world safer, rather otherwise.

It is bringing a more abrupt racist behavior towards fellow beings (muslims, who happen to be as much humans as others) across the planet earth besides infusing a strong sense of insecurity and hatred among the affected (people of Afghanistan, Iraq, Israel (Palestine), Pakistan, India......) for the saviours/invaders/oppressors/ in particular and for the world leading countries in general as its easy to hate a nation e.g. whites or muslims (commonly understood terms related) than to reach and hate the masterminds who strictly watch their own vested interests.

These wars are rather helping the hard-liners to brainwash the innocents and also allowing some nations to use others as scapegoats for their personal gains..


Death toll increases with every passing day on both sides and its a proof enough for us all to understand....


This ever-increasing life loss is not going in vain but its not serving the intended purpose of the dead at least....

There was a time in history when this whole piece would have been regarded as sabre-rattling by a "war correspondent". But we are not at war; there is no identifiable enemy; and our presence does not conform to UN resolutions.

We have a significant problem in that we choose to darken every member of the Taleban because of the acts of some of their number, and their (in our view) oppressive religious beliefs. And yet we are supporting an equally vicious interim government.

Those brave people who fight in Afghanistan need justification for their presence just as their loved ones do. It would be hopeless for all of us to simply put the book back on the shelf and say "sorry we were wrong". It would be a shameful defeat; but did any of us ever have a right to expect anything different?

History shows just how fast allegiances change in this region of the globe. It is a hostile territory for all those who are not flavour of the month. It was never any different, it is just that a foreign invader has had the audacity to believe it can do what no one has done before it, just as it imagined it could do in South East Asia.

So this entrenchment of face savers will remain until there is a glimmer of positivity that can blown into a "tangible benefit" and we can all breathe again. Except of course the whole matter will quickly return to square one when we have forgotten our sad mistakes.

Many people feel the we should not be fighting in Afghanistan. The government maintains that the terrorists would be in Britain if we were not there. However, when 'forty years' and 'more troops in' comes at you it is dificult to be confident.

Poirot;

So much for America's fair weather friends. How many American troops were stationed in Germany to protect it from the USSR for 40+ years? With friends like Europeans, one does not need enemies. Should not have wasted the time in this ground war. Just nuked the place back into the stone age on the night of 9-11-01. Ooops, couldn't do that. It was already in the stone age.

If we're going to properly address this political and military debacle in Afghanistan I believe that 麻豆社 journalists should stop wasting licence fee money by constantly fraternising with Forces Chiefs, their subordinate ranks and families who are obviously singled out to give an upbeat 'patriotic' message bereft of any objective political analysis! You should start addressing the real politics of the situation {albeit utterly discredited} by interviewing the politicians.

Admittedly this is a difficult task these days because in Parliament none of them (apart from a handful) disagree with each other. But politics goes beyond Parliament and their well 'financed' members. This alleged 'war' has nothing to do with imposing democracy and preventing terrorism. It's all about profits and controlling vital economic resources all dressed up to be a humanitarian mission!

The 麻豆社 should conduct more 'phone in's with the general public prefereably engaging one to one with our bipartisan all party mainstream politicians, more interviews with smaller party representatives (Communists, fascists, even anarchists!) , trade unionists, Afghans,Muslims, Aboriginees, anyone. You are too much under the thumb 麻豆社 which means we all are!

Like many on this planet- I also think that UK has done great unjustice by supporting US on Afghanistan. Unless and untill some country is NOT directly hitting you- why you are invading ? Because of power ?? or some other hidden agendas ?

I do not think that Britain has done it GOOD for themselves and poor Afghans..rather it seems to be trapped in some " covert operation" of USA as there were no WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION and both countries could not find AL-QAEDA anywhere.

Instead of winning hearts , helping people..what rich and resourceful are doing is inhuman and barbaric. Besides all this- where is GOD ?

It's high time the politicians who start the wars were sent out to lead the troops like the kings and knights of olden times then they'll think far more than twice about starting them.

There they are, polishing the seats of their pants on the benches of Westminster, making facile pronouncements and never quite agreeing on a story about what they're doing, why and what it costs.

Why is it that politicians are allowed to start wars then send our youngest and fittest to finish them, many getting slaughtered in the process?

Just to add to #27 thru #29, the original strikes on Afghanistan were made because Osama bin Laden was there and being harboured by the Taleban according to US intelligence. The US had narrowed down his whereabouts to a 20 square mile area around the caves at Tora Bora with only two exit routes. They bombed one exit route and not the other - why? Could it be that ObL was nothing to do with 911 and capturing and putting him on trial would be counter to the real reason for the attack - to invade Afghanistan and force a regime change.

Didn't the US administration lie about Saddam Hussein's connections with Al Qaeda and ObL? Didn't GWB change his story as often as he opened his mouth?

There was no reason to invade Iraq or Afghanistan. The real "trigger" areas were either Pakistan or Saudi Arabia or both. But GWB went out of his way to pronounce his trust in both these states.

There is something about 911, the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan that simply doesn't fit in with official disinformation. Don't you think, 麻豆社, that you should be doing a much better job in investigating just what we are doing in Afghanistan or are your pay checks just too good to miss?

The coverage from the 麻豆社 is fine and we should be made aware of the great work our armed forces are doing in this hostile area. I find it really frustrating when they report on soldiers deaths and they always say " there families have been informed" why do we need to know this? It serves no purpose and I would take it that the families would be the first to find out if there loved ones are killed.

The longer this conflict goes on, the longer it seems to resemble the Vietnam War, the main difference being that Vietnam had once been successfully colonized by the French, Afghanistan hasn't been successfully occupied by a foreign power since the Middle Ages, and it is hard to see why this time should be any different from the last time British troops tried to occupy this territory. It is a vast waste of life and money, nothing to do with the security of Europe, everything to do with sucking up to them Americans. How many British politicians' sons are risking their lives in Afghanistan, I wonder?

So the news agencies try to blame NATO pilots for "civilian" deaths around stolen petrol tankers. The Taliban and Al Quada are past masters at shifting the responsibility of deaths that their actions engender. The innocence of people collecting fuel from the Taliban is suspect to say the least. The stopping of the lorries where there are people is also blatantly disregardful of the safety of civilians. These fanatics are nothing but cold-blooded killers as witnessed by the de-capitation of the drivers. Pity those who believe that you can make peace with them.

#33

Deaths in Afghanistan cannot be justified by NATO since they have no legal basis for being there. Deaths by the Taleban are a matter for the Afghanistan authorities except for the fact that there is no "dependable elected government".

It really doesn't matter what the circumstances of the fighting is; NATO shouldn't be there - period.

@34,

I agree, fillandfrowpist. Where is the legal basis for invading Afghanistan? Just saying (in essence) "well the Americans invaded first so it must be all right" is both morally and legally indefensible.

While the Taliban are not the nicest of people can you really justify killing of civilians by UAVs? Or torturing "suspects"? Or extraordinary rendition? The fixed elections? Or this sort of lewd behaviour?

Liam! You are talking about election day's rocket attacks there were days when Afghans were allowed to elect themselves by means of killing people inspite of casting their today's democratic votes. So we Afghans are nerer to victory our dark days are being down counted and new years of peace and soverenty are about to start!

It certainly is worth it, my son has done 6 tours in Iraq and is just about to finish his first tour of Afghanistan.
To do a better job all of the Nato and UN countries need to contribute their full quota and put more boots on the ground so that areas can be taken and held so that reconstruction can begin.

I think nato and isaf didn鈥檛 go throw the afghan history .
This land did never give peace to its invaders sooner or later they had to pull out with shame and regret .
The most recent example was the Russian invasion .
I don鈥檛 know how the master minds of this war think or plan . the stairs are always climbed one by one and if you think you will jump upwards from step one to the last step there is a big chance or shall we say 100% chance that you will fall back and hurt your self .
That鈥檚 what the master minds are doing they step on the first step (Afghanistan) and now jumping upwards to the last step ( Pakistan ) .
Practically impossible and the future will proof it .
Go back home there is still time , other wise you will put a fire ablaze that you will never be able to extinguish

Like many on this planet- I also think that UK has done great unjustice by supporting US on Afghanistan. Unless and untill some country is NOT directly hitting you- why you are invading ? Because of power ?? or some other hidden agendas ?

I do not think that Britain has done it GOOD for themselves and poor Afghans..rather it seems to be trapped in some " covert operation" of USA as there were no WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION and both countries could not find AL-QAEDA anywhere

I think that the US is acting like a big [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]Baby and must grow up.

There is something about 911, the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan that simply doesn't fit in with official disinformation. Don't you think, 麻豆社, that you should be doing a much better job in investigating just what we are doing in Afghanistan or are your pay checks just too good to miss?

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

If John Major is saying that going after Saddam was an inadequate reason for invading Iraq then surely going into Afghanistan going after OBL was also inadequate too.



Especially since the Taliban were keen to give him to the US.



Especially since OBL was working for the USA anyway (up until 9/11)


...and probably had nothing to do with the controlled demolition of the 3 towers in New York...


...and little to do with the hijackings (since KSM has admitted he planned it from A-Z)


All-in-all, there is enough doubt here for the UK to get out and only go back in when there is a real, legal reason to do so.

Having served in HM forces for almost a decade I would like to bring something new into the arena of this discussion. To begin with I do not believe that anyone who understands world politics and foreign policy can not have observed the web of lies and subterfuge that got us to this point. That said, I am sure that the debate will continue to rage until after UK forces are withdrawn along with the rest of Europe.

However, one issue which is never touched upon is what happens to those who have died or to those who have been left permanently disabled. For those who are alive, be it in a limbless state, are riducled by a large proportion of the youth who have no idea of what they have been through. Many are left to fend on insufficient pensions, or on reduced payouts which are for the large part outdated.
As time rolls on they are virtually forgotten from the larger community with many of them unable to marry or suffer divorce due to their inability to maintain a 'normal relationship. Whilst there are various initiatives to ensure they are eased back into society there is still a great deal of psychological rebuilding which takes years.

Furthermore, no matter how well the surgical intervention there will always be a need to keep up outpatient appointments to stave off a host of illnesses that plague amputees.

Still further along the line of issues that are not thought about are those who are left behind after the death of a loved one. They have a social support group which helps them come to terms with the berevement, but the social group cannot replace the warm friendly chats and the cold place in the bed, once warm but now empty.

You see we talk about heroes and stalwarts, but the reality is that beyond the flag hoisting, medal ceremonies no one thinks about those who are left behind or those who have to face a life without limbs. What makes it worse is that the whole damn thing turned out to be shed of lies, a policy not meant to contain or destroy a black spectre, but to fuel a fire of disinformation.

Finally, working for a secular country does not answer the problem which is- "Is there life after death"? if there isn't (which is not my belief) then what an abrupt end to a young life, whilst others are allowed to continue to call the shots (no pun intended) and live out their lives in luxury.

However, if there is some accountability (in the next life) then who will be right, who will be called to pay the price? While we would all like to think that 'our loved ones' would be living it large, no one walking the earth today can say that they will be from those who inherited paradise. Especially when the bible states that the meek will inherit paradise.

Whilst for many these will be questions outside the scope of their thinking or they have already drawn the conclusion that there is no next life then it will be left until the day of judgement. Unfortunately, that will be a time too late!

Another year and more untimely, tragic death, already. More hollow misery for the bereaved and maimed. I hope the end is in sight, soon and young men (and women), stop dying so far away from their wives, children, soulmates and parents,
"No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. If a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy friend's or of thine own were: any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bells tolls; it tolls for thee".
John Donne Meditation XVII

In reporting about the Jordanian triple agent who blew himself as well as CIA-agents up, you mentionned he came from Zarqua, but ommitted to tell that that also was the home of Al Quaida's Al Zarquawi. Is there a link between these men?