麻豆社

I can't make head or tail of this euro crisis - one minute we are being told that a great depression will happen if Greece defaults or leaves the Euro. Then we are told that everything is about to be fixed on Wednesday.

As a member of Joe Public I really would like someone to tell me how serious or not the implications are for the likes of me. I am under the impression that it is all just political hype as this has been going on for most of the year - financial doom is always hours away and then they arrange another meeting next month.. and then the next month.

Would millions be thrown out of work overnight? Would ATMs stop working? Will we be plunged into a great depression is Merkel and Sarkozy do not annouce an agreement on Wednesday?

I suspect not.

'David Cameron is facing the biggest rebellion of his premiership as euro sceptic Conservative backbenchers have vowed to defy orders ....

... All Conservative, Liberal Democrat and Labour MPs have been instructed to vote against ...

Well, so long as they are 'speaking for the people'.

On matters 麻豆社 and reporting, as I read that first para and then the lead of the second, since when did the vote of Labour MPs become part and parcel of Conservative premiership rebellions?

It's almost like whaissisname, the young bloke who has the statesmanship ambitions, confused with his brother a lot... is being sanitised in all this by some. Yet more editorial by omission?

If none too subtle.

Sorry, but the whole sorry crew seem in it up to their necks, 麻豆社 favoured or not. Pretending otherwise seems... brave.

I HEARD AN MP SAY: IF WE GET OUT OF EUROPE THEY WILL BUY NOTHING FROM US.

Or words to that effect. The 2010 election Liar Flyer said: "The Conservatives must win HERE to stop 5 more years of Gordon Brown." It was a manifest lie.

Do political parties and politicians lie ROUTINELY? Is that the mark of civilisation, democracy and rule of law? Is there something about the Westminster Ethos that is PERVERSE, PERNICIOUS AND UNCONDUCIVE TO HEALTHY GOVERNANCE?

I suppose that would 'explain Dave', but is it what we want for our children?

'Paul Mason will be picking through what's on the table, whether it goes far enough and how close to a solution we are.'

What we need to tackle this table with him is someone with the skill, gravitas, popular respect and statesmanlike track record to do the topic justice.

I propose Newsnight 'always on standby' regular Lord John Prescott, who as we all know also 'speaks for the nation'.

No reason:) Though you may need to surf a bit broader than the 麻豆社 to find out why not.

BY 'ECK - 'E'S A REGULAR LORD IS THAT ONE! (#4)

In the Age of Perversity, Junkk, who better to comment? And with the nation in such a parlous state, who better to speak for it?

Reet champion lad.

5.

We'll probably get our referendum on EU when the big Treaty comes through for bailing out more sun med pensioners & part timers - but what will the questions be:

My guess is:

Do you vote 'Yes' to take big bonuses of hard working talented individuals who occasionally pay some taxes in the UK & which support our UK economy & pay your benefits?
Or
Do you vote 'No' & see that valuable UK economic activity go to e.g. Switzerland.

Alternatively, the Liberal Conservative value policy referendum question may be to vote 'Yes' for longer working extra hours to make sure that nice foreignised multinational companies sending your jobs overseas decides to keep your job in the UK in return for agreeing to work any hours at any time, or be immediately replaced by a foreigner

or Vote 'No' to make sure that nice multinational company has to offer you reasonable working hours & conditions of employment & treat you like you have priority of rights in your own country - but that you won't have a job in any case as by then all the jobs for trouble-makers like you will have been sent overseas anyway.

Which just goes to show that the PERVERSITY CIRCUS that we call Westminster means that a UK referendum on anything is now a complete joke and that a referendum is of no possible benefit to anyone unless the right questions are asked and there is a sensible democratic process for dealing with referendum issues alongside the major political processes.

The PERVERSITY CIRCUS viz - a- viz referenda is so perverse that it would indeed be opportune to seek the views of Old 2 Jags himself!

BY ECK its Perverse - even Labour MP's want a referendum now when previously they didn't have the guts to ask 'you know who' for one

I smell a rat here - The Conservative EU repatriation policy on 'UK powers' seems to be only to repatriate powers from Brussels that benefit a well established Tory vested interest & political donors.

I also note that Tunisia (remember the Arab Spring anyone?) has now voted for an Islamic government

The Corporate Nazi's will probably twist this in order to suggest the creation of a single global currency, perhaps that's the true reason the Vatican released it, and to theoretically climb onto the bandwagon of the occupy protests ?

Like I said back on 9th March when it was shot, elected governments now have great power over the Corporate Multinational Cartel to pay decent wages, have good working conditions. For at least the last 20 years the collective CMC had a gun to the head of national governments, but now it would appear that at least for the immediate future governments hold the ace trump card of default on their debts. The only problem is that governments have not woken up to the fact that they now hold total power over the CMC, lots of propaganda about how we have to fund a rescue package. The simple fact that they have already got a possible 60% haircut on Greek debt speaks legions, and any bank bailout just makes the inevitable nationalisation easier in the end. Its pretty clear that if the politicians had the political balls to do it they could actually demand that extra new jobs should be created by the CMC.

>10

Of course the CMC can hide behind the 2008 Climate Change Act and allege that they are investing in " green jobs " which tends to hide the fact that they are still asset stripping carbon intensive industry like aluminium, so soon nowhere in the UK to recycle beer / Coke cans. Don't forget Climate Fools day on Oct 26th !

Excellent discussion by Jeremy with Lamont et al tonight.

@7 Mistress - there's Islamist and Islamist - and even Islamist too. Much of Europe votes for "Christian Democratic" parties: they're nothing like the US "Christian" politicians.

And anyway, as Tunisia has not, for the time being, adopted Mr Cameron's beloved "first past the post" parliamentary system, their Islamists will not have 2/3 of the seats based on 40% of the vote, as has happened too often in the UK in recent years.

/news/world-africa-15309152

It will be interesting to see what kind of system they come up with. Who knows, the may end up having something to teach US about democracy?

@3 Barrie "Do political parties and politicians lie ROUTINELY?"

From Orwell again: "In our time, political speech and writing are largely the defense of the indefensible." ........"All issues are political issues, and politics itself is a mass of lies, evasions, folly, hatred, and schizophrenia"........."Political language -- and with variations this is true of all political parties, from Conservatives to Anarchists -- is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable, and to give an appearance of solidity to pure wind."

George Orwell, "Politics and the English Language," 1946


P.S. It's a pity John Major never read this essay; there's a gem here: "it should also be possible to laugh the not un- formation out of existence ....... by memorizing this sentence: A not unblack dog was chasing a not unsmall rabbit across a not ungreen field."

Our media really are a one track bunch.

Everything is shaped to maximise the enduring damage that can be inflicted to targets that offer the most tantalising results, be it for ratings or agenda.

So I am this morning treated to the 'news' that David Cameron cannot 'count on the loyalty' of a bunch of folk.

Eh?

I take what happened more as encouraging that a fair hunk of Parliamentary representatives grew a slight pair and actually reflected their personal beliefs and the views of their constituents a tad on the bigger issue of the EU's impact on the UK.

That doesn't seem a story the politico-media estate are keen to pursue.

And all at the same time without any mention of what happened with other 3-line whip-imposing 'leaders'.

Now is not the time to be run by such a cabal of spineless drones, and their integrity-compromised complicit message shapers.

Whatever it is, democracy it isn't.

#14 Hear, hear Junkk, fancy actually standing up for one's principals, unheard of in parliament these days.

A comment heard on the radio yesterday. Only 8 million people are alive today who had a vote on going into the EU, I find that quite astonishing, so even fewer have had a say on membership of the EU. When you think we are getting on for 70 million people that's not democracy.

JunkkMale wrote: "I take what happened more as encouraging that a fair hunk of Parliamentary representatives grew a slight pair and actually reflected their personal beliefs and the views of their constituents a tad on the bigger issue of the EU's impact on the UK."

This is an attempt to get some things clear (for me as much as anyone
else) and to reduce the nonsense which some keep posting here to the detriment of others. An MP is supposed to represent his constituents. If the MP is elected specifically to represent a position of those constituents in parliament, it has to be very explicit what that policy is, or how can the electorate hold the MP accountable? Contrary to what Barrie Singleton keeps writing, we do not elect people per se in this country, we elect representatives of policies. What Barrie does not appear to grasp (looking at how he writes day after day) is that it is not about the person. That he does not see this shows in the way that he keeps attacking the man not the ball (policy). In a democratic Parliamentary system the parties DO field candidates. This is because in such a system, it is the votes in the chamber which count. If a candidate stood as a Conservative, Labour or Liberal Democratic candidate they did so nationally, to makes sure that their party's policies were effected through the democratic process. Of course there will be Three Line Whips at times. That is party discipline and a reminder that the MPs are not there under their own steam but as party members! Most of these MPs have not been elected for their personalities or their personal views, but to represent their party. They are also there to represent all of their constituents, not individuals. Barrie Singleton is an independent, and I say good luck to him. But he needs to learn something more about our political system I suggest, or he won't make much progress. as he risks just being seen as an annoying gadfly.

It is not about self, but that does not mean politics does not attract its fair share of narcissists and psychopaths. It is, for some, a performing art, like teaching.

The EU ECB and its money:



who is committed to supporting it most? Germany or Britain? The EU project is the Marshall Plan. The OECD. That opposes the Eastern bloc, now being formed as an Asian Zone (CIS/SCO/BRICSA). We are now seeing a lot of money sloshing about to prop up the former Libertarian system, and by taking power away form Britain it ensures our people have no say in how the OECD is run by the USA proxies, their banks. Who will be pulling the strings, or manning the vampire squid pumps do you think? Mr Cameron - was in PR and banking was he not? Why were so many of our leading MPs and journalists groomed in the USA I keep asking. They don't really do Governance, they do anarchism as freedom to run a Big Business not Big Government. We need to wake up to this, and see that many of our journalists just toe the anarchist line for what is in it for them, short-term. The media and politicians here have been in bed together..

Wot a laugh?!





All these rich "anarchists"! Was all this demonstration for the media, so they could report this, and not the important one outside parliament, against staying in the EU, now I wonder......

will NN be covering climate fools day at parliament on 27th oct? the anniversary of the parliament voting against science and nature? in what way is promoting the failed theory that co2 drives temperature public service? Given the predictions from the climate changers models have a zero success rate and those from sun observations have an 85% success rate why is the bbc on the side of the zeroes rather than the heroes?

the bbc might as well be promoting those 'bomb detectors' based on dowsing rods?

17

he says he doesn't want to destroy the planet. clearly someone has destroyed his reason if he believes all that climate changers claptrap. bbc must be proud they helped in that 'mission' of spreading the darkness of ignorance across the country?

'16. At 09:50 25th Oct 2011, brown-dog -
This is an attempt to get some things clear (for me as much as anyone
else) and to reduce the nonsense which some keep posting here to the detriment of others.'

Isn't it great that, currently, you can have that opinion, express it, and attempt to persuade others, as opposed to having a system that backs you telling them how they need to think and what they need to believe? Especially when speaking for those who may not be that keen to be spoken for.

Not sure the alternatives are proving too popular.

'17. At 10:10 25th Oct 2011, ecolizzy wrote:


Well, the sign writing should be simple enough to revise to 9.9%

btw a while back the piers corbyn predicted the recent uk extreme weather and said there was an increased chance of significant earthquakes around the world. what did the global warmers predict?

Cameron's 'Iraq' Vote

Cameron might of won the vote but what did he win? Might this win be fatal to his leadership?

Farming for Food or Money?

the uk pay millionaire landowners 4 billion a year to grow nothing. These who some call 'slipper farmers' get money merely for owning an asset. Most other people are taxed for owning an asset. Why has this millionaire subsidy been ring fenced when so many other things haven't?

why has nn lost its watch in pop out function on iplayer?

The Tory-Lib-Lab leadership Pact.

Well done to the pro choice side. I hope , metaphorically speaking , they all have their bow (trigger) fingers still attached to their hands this morning and are not afraid to show them to the whips.

Surely bullying by the party whips should be classed as 鈥渄uress鈥� , as in contract law, with such duress induced votes being classed as void ?


Zambia

Does their legal system recognize adverse possession ?

If not, I assume they will have to rely on the benevolence of their government for remedy.

china has overtaken the uk in the art market yet still claim poverty. the wealth transfer is going nicely given the chinese say they will not change the currency because they will 'lose jobs'. Which is the point. Its supposed to lose jobs.

its still 10 yuan =拢1. which is an act of economic war. how long will the uk govt allow uk jobs and factories be destroyed by these chinese currency bombers before they wake up?

Gaddafi and his convoy were displaying and waving the white flag...the globally recognised symbol of surrender - prior to the airstrike, then his capture - and then his quick execution ...and not before he was sodomised with a rifle. Apparently his surrender had been arranged from the high-ups in Washington- but turned out to be a devious trap. The man who arranged the surrender in the town of Sirte had his door kicked in and was summarily executed. All this begs the question. Can Hilary -the hag -Clinton and others be brought to trial for breaking international rules of war. A question I'd thought I'd ask.

JunkkMale wrote "Isn't it great that, currently, you can have that opinion, express it, and attempt to persuade others, as opposed to having a system that backs you telling them how they need to think and what they need to believe? Especially when speaking for those who may not be that keen to be spoken for.

Not sure the alternatives are proving too popular."

What Brown-Dog posts here probably makes little or no difference. It might make a few think more a little self-critically for a moment or two, probably whilst raging - that tends to be the way real change happens. Is that a good, bad or even useful use of one's time? I'm not sure. But, there are some facts worth bearing in mind.

As a population becomes more and more child-like, it becomes more and more easy to buy off with treats and lies. Democracy comes in many forms. There's Liberal Democracy which is rights based and which I now see as largely predatory (I never used to, maybe I have grown up a bit?) and there is Democratic Centralism which is more duty based, a pyramid structure. The Chinese still have the latter and they are making friends. It seems Libya tried some sort of socialism too but look what happened. With only about 6 million people they were easy to pick on I guess. Others will be harder. In the USA and OECD there is talk of democracy as if there was only one type. The Chinese have elections. So did the former Old Labour USSR. How come we don't her about that on Newsnight etc?

All sorts of things which are bad for one are also very popular. Just look at all the obese people with diabetes, heart disease etc, the alcoholics and broken marriages etc. So, one can't trust populism or "choice". We are not all equally able to judge what's right for us. That is why we have parents up to age 18. That some never grow up is a problem, as chronological age is not the key. Who looks out for those who can't think ahead very far. The impulsive. The child-like?

We go to doctors, accountants, etc - we don't all think we are doctors or accountants (unless deluded narcissists). Diversity is complex, but we surely don't need a bunch of prima donnas/drama queens straight off the stage of self-promotion saying that they can run the country and win support just because people naively think the X Factor etc is reality?
Such people can't know anything about the machinery of lawful governance. If they had their way it would err, all end in anarchism, non governance and people shooting AK-47s in the air and setting off IEDs - possibly?

jauntycyclist wrote "its still 10 yuan =拢1. which is an act of economic war. how long will the uk govt allow uk jobs and factories be destroyed by these chinese currency bombers before they wake up?"

You do appreciate that they run a different type of democracy? It's called Stalinism or more accurately today, Socialism With Chinese Characteristics. They got a bit upset when Stalin died and the Soviet reformers seemed to be going a bit liberal.

Despite appearances, they too have capitalists working for state interests, it's just that those are not the same interests as those of the USA/EU. They don't like our type of democracy. They think it is unfair..

A larger version of ego-centricism is its collective form, ethno-centricism - a naive and false belief that other groups are just the same as one's own. The Chinese way is not the European Libertarian way. It has a different type of Constitution and laws.Its actions must be judged against that political and legal context, not against ours.
They are hardly likely to do anything to encourage the growth of our system. They disapprove of it as much as the banks here disapprove of theirs. Our envoys of the banks go about the world disrupting their influence in fact. Russia and China are not amused and may swat us one day.

In their own words:-

28

yes they are open about their economic warfare on us. they don't hide it. which is why they have trillions in surplus and we have ever increasing trillions in debt. this trend is set to continue. they build factories that look like palaces and we are turning the street lights off.

jauntycyclist wrote "yes they are open about their economic warfare on us. they don't hide it. which is why they have trillions in surplus and we have ever increasing trillions in debt. this trend is set to continue. they build factories that look like palaces and we are turning the street lights off."

Is it warfare on us, or is in on those who exploit us? I ask as they are socialists (not racists). They put people before profit. It is the Libertarian economic system which they ideologically disapprove of, not the people who have to work to that system. They overthrew that system for their own people. hence their factories. Competition can not fair (no level playing field) if there is biological diversity, and there is.

Our Libertarian system of "freedom" is thus a grand deception which favours the few, who have greater advantages through nothing more than their luck in life's genetic lottery and a corrupt economic system through which they prosper at the expense of less fortunate others.

Renminbi has appreciated. When I was studying in England just a few years ago, Pound was trading at 17 yuan = 拢1. In other words, it has appreciated over 40%. Tell me one G7 country that has done the same over the same period, if not the entirely opposite, coupled with extortionately low interest rates for savers and quantitative easing 1, 2 and 3! Now if you will excuse me, I should go back to sewing cashmere sweaters that are designed in Scotland.

jauntycyclist wrote "yes they are open about their economic warfare on us. they don't hide it. which is why they have trillions in surplus and we have ever increasing trillions in debt. this trend is set to continue. they build factories that look like palaces and we are turning the street lights off."

Is it warfare on us, or is in on those who exploit us? I ask as they are socialists (not racists). They put people before profit. It is the Libertarian economic system which they ideologically disapprove of, not the people who have to work to that system. They overthrew that system for their own people. hence their factories. Competition can not fair (no level playing field) if there is biological diversity, and there is.
Our Libertarian system of "freedom" is thus a grand deception which favours the few, who have greater advantages through nothing more than their luck in life's genetic lottery and a corrupt economic system through which they prosper at the expense of less fortunate others.