麻豆社

Ey, no 169

What kind of stupid machine are you talking about that does never fully satisfies it"s
operators but instead fires back at them or destroys their tools/keys 2?

TOO MANY BASES TO COVER FOR GOOD GOVERNANCE

Promises made to get elected.

Avoidance of 'memorable black marks' to be used by Labour at next election.

Need to keep backers happy.

Need to keep Murdoch un-annoyed.

Need to continue to be deceitful (Old Politics) because the truth has no place in Westminster.

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I'm happy about the fuel/alcohol/tobacco duty remaining frozen, and the tax credit schemes as well as pensions being linked to earnings too. Would have prefered to have had CGT frozen ( or even lowered), and not raised to 28%! OK so VAT goes up to 20%, but it is still lower than the maximum in the EU at 25%.

This also is newsy. BYT & Mods,that is, how I deal with grand and not so grand political, social, communication and in round about financial issues of the day or from a historical point of view which means MY WAY.

This morning before leaving I danced to Nina Simone singing the song under the same title. It may have been quite funny to watch but without me laughing with it, I.e. intentionally comic but with an expressionally neutral face.

mim

So VAT goes up and so that may dampen sales but then I assume that for quite a chunk of the population on balance they are still pretty well unaffected if they are in good paying jobs.

The budget saw some measures to help the less well off and though there is still going to be pain I am sure that is not lost on them.

There is little chance that this budget will cause huge social divisions - who is to say that the sense of a nation in crisis may not pull people together more and not less as it is not just a slogan "that we are all in this together".

We ARE all in this together - though it would of course be appreciated if the far right could stand elsewhere.

If the coalition duly holds together then three budgets from now things could be a lot worse if people don't see the light at the end of the tunnel and think it is an oncoming train.

Crossing your fingers does not help in economics I am told and so hoping that the sovereign debt crisis does not immediately scupper our existing reformulated economic plans and leave us in chaos.

But I don't see Labour reaping any benefit until the public see that they have earned enough respect and trust to hold office.

So slating cutters when they would have cut by a similar amount later does not help them and if the coalition has cut now and things go smoothly then they have no fox and even less credibility.

Labour slating bankers does not help when it was on their watch that light touch regulation failed and they had hordes of bankers in government as advisers and Blair sits on a bank board.

They weren't all cabs for hire but I don't see at this time where a Labour recovery comes in.

Those on the far right are even more irrelevant should they try to take advantage of the crisis whilst protesting that they are not Nazis - they never even MENTION one ADOLF HITLER because that's the kind of people they are - they will fail as they have the "baggage" of their various criminal convictions and history so provided a careful eye is kept on their activities and ... probable activities like the English Defence League.

#2 barriesingleton

"Need to continue to be deceitful (Old Politics) because the truth has no place in Westminster. "

Yes the truth.....

Now you need not get agitated as you have your lettuce to grow and this is more for other readers.

Do you recall that poster jaded_jean whom you used to praise and encourage?

People know the drill by now - somebody on hand comments on deceit at Westminster but neglects to mention that on the other hand they have had many enraptured posts on genetics and the Holocaust being made up and eugenics and what a peace lover Hitler was.

Context is everything sometimes.

Democracy has its problems but it will correct itself over time.

National Socialism does not - I am sure you agree.

#3 kevseywevsey

If you were about to comment on the effect of 20% VAT on sales of orgone energy accumulators if you were about to rush into production fear not as I doubt this affects things much.

So do you think "the Griff" will make an alternate and carefully costed budget speech?

The thought of all of those BNP types sitting their counting their fingers does pain the mind.

Not that YOU are the BNP as you are an English nationalist so that is all nice and clear.

Its also the case as I always make clear anyway that the BNP are "not a Nazi Party".

Of course not.

DISAPPOINTED OF ?????

Child benefit unchanged. Why not at least restricted to first two children?

Capital Gains Tax. Profit above people still!

Always loved children's clothing being VAT free. Ever tried buying a child's shirt or pair shoes (size 11/12) for a 6ft tall 13 year old!

What's a child?

Child should be more clearly defined. School Age (16); able to vote (18) drink (buy alcohol), smoke (buy tobacco products), Pay full fare on buses (14) enjoy legal you know what (16) ......

There is a very topical piece by the 麻豆社 on climate change and scepticism that could be expanded to give greater understanding:

"Some 98% of climate scientists that publish research on the subject support the view that human activities are warming the planet, a study suggests.

It added there was little disagreement among the most experienced scientists."

If Professor Hans von Storch, a sceptic, said there IS general agreement on the main points of climate change but disagreement only on " Himalaya glaciers, the changing tropical storms and their damages or the fate of Greenland" then surely that needs to be clarified as to me specific instances of how warming are secondary to the issue that human impact is having an effect.

But in general it seems to me that the kind of people who sign up to scepticism tend to be "contrary" as Thatcher is who just piled in.

Others have their own agendas and it is no mistake that those prone to conspiracy theories also take to those offering 9/11 third tower "demolition" smoke screens and far right icons of Holocaust Denial and Jewish hegemony.

So overall the total failue of climate sceptics and conspiracy theorists
to marshall their arguments so that the facts can be seen is always abandoned because the facts aren't there.

That said if real scientists have real science to show that they are right then we should take care to listen.

On other theories like 9/11 conspiracies and Holocaust Denial these people have courts that they can take their "evidence" to - but they never go do they?

I usually praise Obama but ...

"The top US commander in Afghanistan has been summoned to Washington in the wake of a magazine article that quotes him and aides criticising senior Obama administration officials and diplomats. "

There must be immense pressure on all parties but this incident reflect badly on the general who must, or should, have a "blow out preventor" so that he can express his misgivings and problems whilst executing his patriotic duty in a WAR.

Obama must therefore not get rid of him if he is the man for the job but should both harshly slap him down for going to Rolling Stone rather than Congress if there were issues.

If the general has valid complaints they should be addressed and of course the big issue is there is a war to be won.

On one hand I am just a poster who knows nothing of the detail and not much about fighting war or handling armies and on the other a General talks to Rolling Stone and then suggests that he does not know what came over him and it "should never have happened".

That is not totally credible as it did and something is not right.

As a much beleaguered Tax Payer whose hard earned income is systematically wasted and misspent, I am extremely disappointed by how incredibly timid this budget it. Far more needs to be cut from public spending especially from Education and the NHS, entire departments and QUANGOs need to be abolished with immediate effect and why not just scrap Child Benefit altogether?

It makes sense to reduce Income Tax and increase VAT. Income Tax was introduced as a 鈥渢emporary measure鈥� by William Pitt the Younger to pay for the Napoleonic Wars and was rightly condemned then for what it still is today - a literal penalty on earning a living. VAT, on the other hand, targets spending and consumption which should be taxed 鈥� the more you spend then the more you should pay.

Overall this is just a wasted opportunity to allow the British public to keep far more of their own money that they have worked so very hard to earn.

MONEY AND POWER ARE IDENTICAL - BOTH BRING CONTENTMENT.

This is the natural assumption of our leaders, by virtue of the world they inhabit, so they manipulate money, with a view to 'empowering' US, to make us so approving that we keep them in power.

But it is a false premise. The fundamental prerequisite of contentment is TO BE MASTER OF WHAT GOES ON IN YOUR OWN HEAD. Was there anything in the budget (or manifesto - sorry, forgot, both manifestos are 'off') to that effect? Is there a minster for psychological competence? IN WESTMINSTER?!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Until Johnnie Englander is psychologically competent, he will be run ragged by his head (and by advertisers - including governments - who get in it). The resultant cost of dysfunction will drag us down.

While our power-mad leaders pay billions to fight 'Terror' in far lands, the real Terror is inside ordinary heads, laying waste to our culture to an extent no Taliban ever will. That cost will be beyond measure.

I AGREE WITH FRANCOIS MARIE (#10)

Hi Gango - might I ask you to define your terms?

1) Scientist

2) Sceptic

3) Conspiracy

4) Denier


Supplementary (optional)

5) Can scientists conspire?

6) Can sceptics be proved right?



Keeping in mind that J Gordon Brown turned out to be the bigot, rather than Mrs Duffy - show all working.

Use of 'Hitler' of 'Holocaust' in your answers will lose marks.

gangophone #10

Said 麻豆社 article probably demonstrates just how desperate the " warmists " have become in their attempt to sell their quasi-religion. It would appear that the majority of alleged " deniers " are mostly older men either retired on on the point of retirement with sound personal finances, whereas most of the " warmists " are younger and likely to have big debts at the Banks controlling their alleged freedom of speech.

14

marxists just like to name call people those who don't submit to the brainwashing?

why does tax 'change' climate? to monetise is the materialist solution to everything.

Numer O UNO An Acoustic Shutdown Device seems 2 work/ an atomic clock A form of Machine, there are loads me included butt only for 3 score years and 10. Will I See the big Seventee? I have some doubt but slowly slowly catchy monkey.

NO 12 The Nothing Evil About You, nice one

302 Now Dead how many Maimed?

Memo 2 Mad Hatty harmMan re your dozy budget speech have you or any of your clowns in nulabour ran their own busines and or lived in THE REAL WORLD

one example of the lack of brains high within nulabour

dr of stupidity j reid the red. you will go in there without a shot being fired. in 13 spinning years how many dimwit nulabour mpees fired? that would be none

with example above only idiots would believe anything that comes out of your brainwashed dozy gob

my children are in debt one of them came 2 close 2 a muppet with A suicide BOMB

a big fat f for fail

I'm starting to understand how THX-1138 felt.



Don't the mods look smart in their helmets.

UK GOVT BUDGET CUT DELIBERATIONS OUGHT TO FACTOR IN POTENTIAL EFFECTS ON THE UK's CURRENT AND FUTURE WORLD ROLES AS WELL AS HOW WHATEVER DECISIONS ARE MADE WILL EFFECT UK TRADE INTERESTS!!

Strategies for maintaining the UK's, surface combatant, subsurface combatant- & other military vessel types & related technologies- innovation, design & construction capabilities several decades into the future should prominently factor into whatever decisions are made regarding the UK's govt spending and its budget during the coming years.

Similarly, regarding the Trident renewal/Vanguard successor class submarine issues: decision-making processes should be considering the UK's optimal global 'industrial, technological & military competence & capabilities' profiles & how whatever decisions are made will enormously affect these profiles...

Wimping out by using dangerous, false-logic as an excuse to not proceed with- AND FIX- currently active, but seriously flawed programmes such as the Type-45 Destroyer, Astute class submarine and Vanguard successor/Trident renewal projects

... and for the UK to not maintain a continually at-sea nuclear deterrent would be inviting the UK's removal from the world's most powerful and influential geopolitical, financial, trade, legal & military organizations...

What geo-political, economic, research, trade & other types of benefits can potentially be expected from the above referenced and in particular- the Vanguard successor/Trident renewal programmes??

Would the UK's removal from the world's most exclusive, top decision making tables damage future UK trade interests- & by extension: future national budgets- less than the projected costs of proceeding with the Type-45, Astute and Vanguard successor/Trident renewal programmes??

Any country- such as the UK- with a better-part-of-2-centuries long history occupying leading positions on the world's most powerful and influential political, legal, trade, financial and military bodies needs to be seen to be structuring its military capabilities and high-tech/industrial competencies as though it intends to retain these positions...

.... 12 years of Labour govt gross negligence, deliberate lack of long term military force level & capabilities' planning & putting party-political histrionics ahead of national duty have left the RN an emaciated, neutered, excessively-vulnerable-to-modern-airborne-anti-ship-weapons force!!!

...resulting in the UK & its assets- particularly overseas ones- at high risk- if not inviting aggression- from both state & non-state actors world-wide...

... & jeopardizing the UK's hugely valuable, leading positions on the world's most powerful international political, financial, military & legal bodies such as Nato, the UN's 'permanent 5' group of its Security Council, the IMF, G8, G20 & the like...

If the UK builds- or becomes known to be intending to build- less than half the operationally-required numbers of an integral to national defence & 'world roles' class of military vessel- in this case submarines- during a 2-decade span- the UK can expect to be viewed by other countries as weak and ambitionless- possessing misguided and incompetent leadership, and not worthy of retaining its long-held positions of leadership on the world's most powerful and influential political, legal, trade, financial and military bodies...



_________________
Roderick V. Louis,
Vancouver, BC, Canada

I think Jeremy Paxman wasted valuable time by questioning Danny Alexander about election pledges on VAT. The country changed when the coalition came in, this budget is a serious attempt (I hope) to sort the country out and instead we waste time bantering politics and then entertaining the nonsense fron Liam Byrne who deserves some sort of time for reflection on his failings.

Hi
Just watched the debate between Lawson, Williams and Robertson and felt quite frustrated as Geoffrey Robinson was, as you would expect I guess, 'ganged up' on by the coalition partners who rarely gave him a chance to speak or to expand his arguments/answers. Can we avoid this unfairness in the future - maybe have a representative from the coalition rather than two members who will unsurprisingly attack the the other guest from the Labour party. Also they were given two thirds of the time to give their own opinions so there was an imbalance - only my view -but something didn't seem quite right about it.

:o) Jeremy on top form again - absolutely slaughtered Danny Alexander, followed by the trio of Lord Lawson/Shirley Williams/Geoffery Robinson and then the hat-trick at the end!!! Lord Lawson et al got told off because they were disturbing the news getting read out :p
(Oh and Paul is now officially Newsnight's "Pointy Head.")

Fantastic!

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Brightyangthing

I felt very playful watching Newsnight tonight, BYT. In fact, I've felt like that throughout the day enjoying dusting off the worst aspects of the last 23 years or so. At the same time it has been a most serious attempt to teach somebody/some bodies a lesson which hopefully they'll take heed of and remvember for the rest of their lives. It's quite amazing what short memories they seem to have. A bit like what's quite often the case with the really elderly who remember the distant past in all its detail but get confused about the present.

mim

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#24

What do you mean, Mistress76uk, about Mr Mason being the point head? Pointing what and in whose direction? Could you be a little more specific?

mim

Re: the wonders of chats

Brightyangthing

I was supposed to be having an appointment today with a Consultant at Chelsea & Westminster Hospital. On my arrival, I was told by a chatty patient that the delay was about one hour, so I sat myself down regretting missing out on the sunshine and ice skating but thought well, if I have to wait, I have to wait. We carried on chatting with the other patient about how we felt, books and politics, mainly Barack Obama and what a hard job it is to be the President of the USA, the most scrutinised job in the whole world.

Then we talked about the ills of the world and what can be done to improve it. The gentleman suggested, as a few NN bloggers used to, that either a war or some kind widespreak epidemic could be a solution but I didn't agree with him and went on talking about some of the fundamental changes that are happening these days, including economy, religion and the way politicians play politics, humanely or not, etc.

And out of the blue a phrase came to my mind to describe this by calling it spring cleaning.

IT'S GLOBAL SPRING CLEANING OF HUMANITY that we are engaged in, Brightyangthing.

mim

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------

on tonight's budget, have more to say, but:

/blogs/newsnight/paulmason/2009/11/a_fascinating_insight_into_11.html

there are *many* examples of the effects of IMF style 'budget reductions' in fact, most African countries have felt them for example. South America, central America, lotsa poor countries that got poorer. Strangely, its hard to find an honest story about how cutting eg education budgets helps a country develop, achieve and grow. Nor, oddly, any honest stories of the enormous benefits of allowing tax-avoiding multi-nationals coming to own all of a Nation's assets - including basic water supply, waste recycling, and air-traffic control.

Apart from the short-lived yet long-term economically devastating effects of deliberately creating a 'credit bubble' based upon artificially rising house prices, this IMF-style 'medicine' Osborne is forcing down our throats has been shown to do NOTHING except destroy social fabric, and end investment in the Nation's future, anywhere else in the world it has ever been tried. There are many in the nuLabour ranks who also believe in this neo-liberal 'children's economics' but there are also Tories and Lib-Dems who surely can see that this economic policy is completely disastrous.

curiously it seems, allowing such modern-age monopolists and outright buccaneers to take control of an economy, doesn't seem to ever lead to a more prosperous future for the majority of the population. Thankfully however, we have that Election Manifesto Pledge of whichever Party that it would be "Fair". Phew.

...yet not the kind of "Fairness" that promotes progressive taxation, as opposed to regressive VAT. Nor the kind of "Fairness" that would come from the State providing funding for new cooperative ventures to start up, nor funding for locally generated energy schemes. In fact, the summary of this can be - 拢2Bn taken from a fantasy, non-transparent "bank levy", from a sector that received 拢1,500Bn of tax-payer monies in the preceding 24 months, yet 拢110Bn+ taken from the actual tax-payers and services to those tax-payers - adding on to effective cuts from previous years, raiding of pension funds, slashing of wages and worker rights.

and the VAT Bombshell - the 拢500 pound from EVERY household in the UK, regardless of ability to pay, regardless of how the poorest will cope.


if Osborne gets his way, the Welfare State will be dismantled, and there will be no rights for workers.


-i was very grateful that the new Treasury Press Officer came onto NN tonight to explain all those worries away, but i must admit this worry of mine - surely it was way past his bed-time by that point?? And is he looking forward to doing his Economics GCSE?

#29 addendum

Being a positive kind of person that I am, more and more so in fact, I find that spring cleaning can be an enjoyable thing to do despite having to deal with lots of dirt, stains, fat stuck to the cooker and my kitchinette walls and cupboards, etc., especially with music on in my case which always has a wonderfully stimulating effect on my body and soul making me fitter and fitter every day.

After all is done, I'm looking forward to full enjoyment of life and its wonders amd pleasures 'leaving' the best bits for a bit later.

This also is bound to have a desired effect on a more global scale with us, Brightyangthing, thanks to modern technology and ease of simultaneous communication with both the leaders and 'ordinary' folk rethinking ways of working & living more fulfilling lives and looking after the most vulnerable amongst us, like starving kids for example, and our Mother Earth.

mim

mim

mim

UK GOVT BUDGET CUT DELIBERATIONS OUGHT TO FACTOR IN POTENTIAL EFFECTS ON THE UK's CURRENT AND FUTURE WORLD ROLES AS WELL AS HOW WHATEVER DECISIONS ARE MADE WILL EFFECT UK TRADE INTERESTS IN THE COMING DECADES!!


CONTINUED:

The measely 6 Type-45 Destroyers that the previous Labour govt approved funding for the construction of- are being commissioned into service without industry standard AND vital defensive, communications, offensive equipment & armaments fitted and/or sub par/tenth rate and used equipment & armaments are being fitted at build-completion/commissioning...

This has been (inadequate-Labour-govt-funding-driven) MoD policy for over 8 years- policy astonishingly emptily promoted and manipulatively defended by MoD representatives....

A cogent reference can be found in the January 15-2001 testimony of:

- Sir Robert Walmsley, Chief of Defence Procurement and Chief Executive of the Defence Procurement Agency and

- Vice Admiral Sir Jeremy Blackham, the Deputy Chief of Defence Staff, Equipment Capability to the House of Commons' Select Committee on Public Accounts:



Testimony from the above linked-to Parliamentary committee minutes shows that there were indeed "funding-policy-led" plans within the MoD to commission new Type-45 Destroyers without any sonar fitted (in addition to their many other egregious weapons deficiencies & flaws)...

Testimony also shows how dangerously outmoded the STILL IN SERVICE TODAY Sea Dart anti airborne threat system was in 2001...



".. 73. Is that not remarkable? ... we have a report which envisages that you are sending these three ships (new Type-45 Destroyers) to sea without a sonar and then seven weeks later, lo and behold, you are going to send (the new Type-45 Destroyers) to sea with a sonar and you have the lads around the scrapyards looking to see which sonar you are going to fit on it... "

"74. ... Paragraph 3.14 tells us that these destroyers will not only go without sonar, they will go without improved command and control. I assume it means that they are less effective than you would like them to be. They go without situational awareness. Does that mean they actually do not know where they are? What does that mean? They will go without interoperability functions. In times of coordinated warfare, it seems to me that these are not insignificant absences in the capability of this new ship.."

:

:

"... The order (for Type-45 Destroyers) was placed on 20 December last year. When the order was placed, they were for vessels which did not have sonar but had the capability of having sonar inserted at a later date.

"(Sir Robert Walmsley) Exactly.

"151. So we placed an order for something which the Navy would not have accepted as it was at the time it was ordered..."

Reasonable persons would expect that members of the MoD that were aware of hugely serious and highly dangerous equipment capability shortfalls in to-be-built warships would have been testifying loudly for immediate rectification of the govt-funding-driven policies that were driving this INEXCUSABLE situation- not attempting to defend these policies- by trying to double talk committee members and avoid admitting how dangerous the equipment capability shortfalls in the to-be-built Type-45's (and existing in-service RN vessels) were...

As stated above, the majority of the new Type-45 Destroyers' vital defensive, communications* and offensive equipment & armaments are not being fitted at build-completion AND sub par/tenth rate AND USED EQUIPMENT & ARMAMENTS are being fitted at build-completion...

Not only are there far too few Type-45 Destroyers being built- (6) instead of the urgently needed (14)- these warships鈥� anti airborne threat missile system does not work:







:

"... The navy is planning to put old weapons onto its new destroyers as it struggles to get them ready, The News can reveal...

"The navy is expected to take Phalanx systems from (25-year old decommissioned) warships and put it on the Type 45s to beef up their defences. The news comes as the Ministry of Defence revealed that two months on it still doesn't know what caused the ship鈥檚 missile system to fail.

"Phalanx is a radar-guided (machine) gun that protects the ships from attack if the main missile has not worked...."

* Cooperative Engagement Capability" sensors, computer, communications and related hardware:



:

"... The UK Ministry of Defence (MoD) will decide in 2010 whether to acquire the US Navy's Cooperative Engagement Capability (CEC) for integration into selected Royal Navy (RN) surface ships after concluding a third tranche of Assessment Phase (AP3) studies.

"This comes five years after initial plans to integrate the UK CEC system into Type 23 frigates and Type 45 destroyers were brought to a sudden halt as a result of budget pressure.... "

June 07-2010- :

"Ceremonies and celebrations took place in Portsmouth last week as the Royal Navy's second billion-pound-plus Type 45 destroyer, HMS Dauntless, was formally commissioned into Service.

"Both Dauntless and her predecessor HMS Daring remain almost totally unarmed at the moment, following test failures which have meant that their primary armament cannot be accepted into service."

_________________
Roderick V. Louis,
Vancouver, BC, Canada

UK GOVT BUDGET CUT DELIBERATIONS OUGHT TO FACTOR IN POTENTIAL EFFECTS ON THE UK's CURRENT AND FUTURE WORLD ROLES AS WELL AS HOW WHATEVER DECISIONS ARE MADE WILL EFFECT UK TRADE INTERESTS IN THE COMING DECADES!!


PART 3:

According to the MoD in 2002 and after main-gate approval, the UK's new Type-45 Destroyers were to be multi-role Destroyers with multi-mission capabilities (similar to the US Navy's Burke class Destroyers, France & Italy's Horizon & FREMM classes of Frigates, S Korea's KDX III class Destroyers, Japan's Kongo & Atago (Burke variant) classes of Destroyers, Holland's De Zeven Provincien Frigates, Australia's Hobart and Anzac classes of Destroyers, Germany's F124s & Spain's F-100 Alvaro de Bazans)...

How does the current deplorable situation contrast with Parliament deliberations from 2000-2005?

July 10-2000: :

"5. the Type 45鈥攊n common with all destroyers and frigates鈥攚ill be a multi-role, general-purpose platform capable of operations across the spectrum of Defence tasks..."

July 23-2003: :

"Envisaged as a replacement for the Type 42 destroyers, the Type 45 will be a multi-role, general-purpose platform capable of operations across the spectrum of tasks..."

So,

1) "why aren't the Type-45's rolling off of the assembly line being fitted with the weapons, communications, defensive and related equipment required to function as 'multi-mission/multi-role' Destroyers??"

If cost is the answer from the MoD/govt, then:

2) "is it reasonably sound and responsible logic for the govt to be directing and/or sanctioning the building and putting into service what are in reality only partially built warships??"

3) "Would the army accept land fighting vehicles that- although fitted with engines and wheels upon delivery to the Army- were to have their guns and armour fitted at a later- NOT SPECIFIED- date??"

4) "What would such a practice do to army service personnel morale, the country's reputation world-wide and its abilities to deter potential aggressors/defend itself in the future??"
========================

According to several defence industry publications the Type-45 Destroyers' main anti airborne threat defence system test failures 'were due to manufacturing defects in the missiles' tested...

Several questions that could be/ought to be put to MoD, govt and/or industry officials are:

1) 'why aren't the UK's Sea Viper/Aster missiles being manufactured- or at least assembled- at plants in the UK??' (considering that the Sea Viper (aka 'Aster 15 and Aster 30) missile manufacturer is MBDA- and that the UK's BAE is a major shareholder in MBDA):

"... MBDA is jointly owned by BAE SYSTEMS (37.5%), EADS (37.5%) and FINMECCANICA (25%):



2) 'why have France's tests of their missiles (apparently) not suffered the problems of the UK's'?

3) 'why have other countries- such as:

a) Saudi Arabia (Al Riyadh class Frigates

); and

b) Singapore (Formidable class Frigate,

)

.... that have recently bought Frigates fitted with Aster-15/Aster-30/PAAMS (Sea Viper) based AAW missile systems (apparently) not suffered the same problems as the UK's??

=================================

The Royal Navy's Type-23 Frigates- with their advanced sonar & abilities to deploy a variety of weapons from-ship- are based at several UK naval bases...

These vessels (& their professional, competent crews) are reasonably proficient in dealing with subsurface threats, but Type-23's have zero competencies against up-to-date, widely proliferated and marketed aggressively worldwide airborne threats- such as supersonic sea skimming anti-ship missiles...

The maximum radius of protection from airborne threats that could be afforded to other ships in a particular squadron or task force by one of the RN's new 'ultra modern' Type-45 Destroyers is reported to be about 4 or at most 4 and 1/2 miles from the respective Type-45, if the Type-45 and other ships/assets in its squadron/task force continue to not be fitted with the equipment and sensors required for 'Cooperative Engagement Capability' (CEC)...

For tactical and logistical purposes, vessels that are part of squadrons & naval task forces almost never remain this close to each other.... so the handful of Type-45's being built for the RN- 6 instead of the urgently required 14- will not be capable of providing anti-air cover for the whole RN...

This situation remains even if Type-45 Destroyers ceased being constructed and commissioned into the RN as stripped down, virtually empty-of-industry-standard-weapons-&-defensive-systems 'make-work-projects'...

Recognizing Type-45's void of anti-submarine/subsurface-threat weapons and defensive systems (IE: 10th-rate, highly limited in capabilities sonar; zero abilities to be armed with ship-launched torpedoes, etc):

1) What happens when a Type-45 is faced with a subsurface threat and there is no Type-23 VERY nearby to 'protect it'??

2) What happens when a Type-23 is faced with an airborne threat and there is no Type-45 close-by to 'protect it'??

Answer: they'd be in trouble...
==============================

Should tax-payer funds go towards the building of aircraft carriers, Destroyers and other classes of front line surface combatants and support vessels for the Royal Navy and Royal Fleet Auxiliary that are fitted and equipped to operate as impotent, incompetent, grievously vulnerable duds, in effect- tax-payer-funded 'make-work-project', 'vote purchasing schemes'??

... or should tax-payer funds go towards the building of aircraft carriers, Destroyers and other classes of front line surface combatants and support vessels for the Royal Navy and Royal Fleet Auxiliary that are fitted and equipped in such a manner to enable the vessels' competent performance against modern types of known and to-be-expected types of threats and to enable the RN and the UK to continue its/their leading, respected roles on the world stage in the coming decades??



_________________
Roderick V. Louis,
Vancouver, BC, Canada

#29 & #32 a bit en plus

I may think globally and have ease of communication with total 'strangers', and all that, but I am very much of a family person. As the saying goes, charity, or perhaps love would be a better word, starts at home which does not need to refer to a particular abode where one happens to lodge at any given time, goes without sayiing.

mim

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@ Mim #28 - You weren't paying attention last night :p
Click onto last night's edition of Newsnight on 麻豆社i Player, and at 8 mins 25 sec, Jeremy states "thank heaven for our own pointy head, Paul Mason."

Defintion of Pointy Head - "adjective Slang: Disparaging .
1. stupid; idiotic.
2. intellectual, esp. in a self-important or impractical way."

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#37

Mistress76uk

Thank you for your response. I do admit to missing that particular phrase that Jeremy used, however I shouldn't think his intention was to be rude to Paul and he may have been referring to something else. I do not think it's Jeremy's style to call people names, especially in public, however sharp he can be with his observations and words.

Paul is not plain stupid anyway. If I say more, the Mods may not allow this post through so I shall stop at that.

mim

if there wasn't bankers debt would there still be a problem? no.

the bankers debt should not be mixed in with the public debt but should be reported separately. but then the tories couldn't use it a as trojan horse to indulge their cuts fetish? nor hide what they plan to do with it?

call me cynical but the tories will not play the joker till just before the next election. the joker being selling the banks off. then suddenly no debt problems. look aren't we amazing? vote for us.

#38: it was a loving, comradely insult dear mim, between two people who deeply respect each other. It was a way of complimenting by hiding behind an apparent dig.

jeremy keeps his spleen for those who deserve it. ;)