麻豆社

NINA: Hello, and welcome to everyone, to the 50:50 Festival and this particular special session looking at representation in music. It's fantastic to be joined by a brilliant panel who will be talking all about representation and 50:50 shortly, but first, let me introduce myself. I'm Nina Goswami, I'm the 麻豆社's creative diversity lead for the 50:50 Project, so I oversee the project at the kind of overall scale, I suppose. But for the uninitiated about 50:50, it is a project which looks to increase women's representation across content. So we have three kind of core principles at the heart of it. Number one is that we use data to effect change - we monitor what we make to see if we can reach 50% women over a set period of time. We have a second core principle which is we measure what we control - after all, we can only really make change where we control something, so that is why that rule is there. Number three is the most golden rule and that is that we never compromise on quality - after all, what we're trying to do with 50:50 is diversify the voices that we have on our content to enrich what we're doing in our particular content. And that is exactly what our panelists have been doing in their particular music. So I'm looking forward to delving in and finding out more with them shortly. But before we do that, we would be slightly amiss not to play some music in a music session and we've been really fortunate that our colleagues at 麻豆社 Introducing have found us such an artist. Their role is to find that new talent, those new artists, and they've done exactly that for us today. Luz has done a special performance for us. She really wanted to do this to support us, and because she really believes in equality as well. So let's hear her track, her performance, and it's called Counting Houses.

(Luz performs Changing Houses)

NINA: Well, that was absolutely fantastic wasn't it? So her track is called Counting Houses and if you would like to hear more from Luz, you can obviously go and check her out online. It's L-U-Z in terms of how to spell her name when you are looking for her and we'll also pop in the chat her Instagram details. While I'm talking about social media please feel free to use the hashtag #50:50project to talk about this particular session or any of the different sessions you will hopefully see across the 50:50 Festival. We're hoping to make this a very interactive session so please also use the Q&A function in the Zoom boxes so that you can ask your questions to our panellists. So let's get to the panellists and dive into representation and dive into 50:50 and how people are making use of it across the music industry. I'm going to start with Millie Carter, who is from 麻豆社 Introducing. Millie, hi, how are you?

MILLIE: Hi, Nina, I'm good thank you, hi, everyone, how are you?

NINA: Fantastic. Thank you for joining us. You have been looking at 50:50 and implementing it in Introducing for quite a while now - a couple of years I think was the time we first met each other. Do you want to tell us about the challenges you've faced and how you've improved and what the journey has been like along the way?

MILLIE: Firstly you have been a great help, Nina, it is having that passion from somebody else in a project and communicating that to the teams because you don't want them to think it is an additional workload, which it is not, it is about making change and specifically within Introducing we are working with artists at the very beginning of their career before giving them their first radio play or festival slot, so it's - if we're creating balanced output and the local Introducing shows across the country are playing - are making sure that they've got that 50:50 split, they're then ultimately helping the change in the music industry. So it was kind of just making sure the teams understood what we were trying to achieve with the 50:50 project and as they kind of came up with when they went out into the communities, they have been involved in outreach, ensuring their line-ups were 50:50, putting out trails on the shows. They started to notice more women uploading and then if you are an artist and you hear someone that sounds like you on the radio, you're more likely to upload because you feel like you can be a part of that as well.

NINA: That is fantastic. So you are having that grassroots impact immediately by thinking about your representation and I'm assuming that then has an impact in terms of what the productions are, so I'm going to bring in Hayley from Somethin' Else here. Hayley Clarke, are you with us?!

HAYLEY: I didn't, yes, hi, Nina.

NINA: Hi, you have many of your shows involved in 50:50 - tell us what about it looks like for you guys?

HAYLEY: So we are a production company for anyone that doesn't know, we make a lot of programmes for the 麻豆社 and wider as well, so we were quite early adopters of the 50:50 scheme, which was great, across all of our Radio 1 and 1Xtra and others, and we've use that had to widen it out amongst the non-麻豆社 programmes we make as well and podcasts which is a huge area that we are propelled into now. I work on music shows predominantly, hence being here, but we make a lot of programmes across the board in speech and podcasts as well, so as Millie was saying, it's sort of just understanding the reason behind doing it and not putting the pressure of the workload on to people, but like really getting the perspective as to why we're doing this and not just for the 麻豆社 but beyond that as well.

NINA: You talk about kind of the impact on the music shows that you are doing - have you got a practical example of how that has worked for you?

HAYLEY: Yes, so having spoken to you and your team it is great to hear our teams are doing really well - I think you were saying it's about 56% of our shows are hitting 50:50 and there has been a 12% increase in that since we started or at least in the last year, so it is small incremental changes but it will eventually make a big impact and it is not scaring people into going, "Oh, you are not doing too well at the start, just keep that momentum up". For me I started when I was doing Jamz Supernova on 1Xtra and it was an all-female team, and we thought we were going to nail it immediately and actually once you start breaking down that data we realised we weren't hitting it every week and because we weren't logging it we just thought anecdotally we were fine and then once you recognise that you might be a bit male-heavy that month or whatever, it really helped us schedule our planning of our shows in advance, which is great as a producer anyway - you really do want to be working, like, four weeks ahead in terms of getting your show content together, so yeah, for us it was a real eye-opener and we're a team that thought that we were already kind of aware of that challenge and even we weren't hitting it. So I think it really helped to galvanise us from there.

NINA: Fantastic. It is actually a really similar story you hear not just in music but across different parts of the content, so you know, when we started in the newsroom that particular team thought that they were reaching 50:50 in terms of their representation, and they found actually they were nowhere even close! Again, as you say, understanding your particular product and then being able to then plan for it makes such a difference, so I'm wondering how impactful that is across the industry, so I'm going to bring in our third panellist here, Maxie. Are you with us? There you are!

MAXIE: Hello, Nina.

NINA: Hello, Maxie. Please introduce yourself and tell us about yourself and Keychange and what you are seeing across the industry at the moment?

MAXIE: Absolutely, thank you so much for having me and Keychange. I'm Maxie, I'm the UK project manager for Keychange and I work for PRS Foundation and PRS Foundation funds new music, we have a partnership with 麻豆社 Introducing as well and I'm also a drummer, I play drums in two bands and have had my own amazing journey with 麻豆社 Introducing too, so it is a real honour to be here to talk about Keychange. Keychange is essentially an international movement and network for gender equality in the music industry and we have three strands to our work. The first strand is a pledge much like the 50:50 project - we encourage any type of music organisation to achieve 50% representation of women and gender minorities, but we encourage that in any area of the music industry. So we have all types of organisations signed up to the pledge who commit to achieving that representation in any area of their work, so it can be in the boardroom, it can be on festival stages, it can be in your workforce, and basically you commit a timeframe and then we collect data every year and we're working sort of on a 5-year timeline for that. So we don't release reports every year, we are working towards a big report in 2024, and we currently have around 475 organisations from all over the world signed up to that pledge. Alongside that work, we also have a talent development programme which is funded by Creative Europe, so every year we work directly with 74 women and gender minority artists and innovators to help them get to the next stage in their career as well. So working with organisations on the pledge and then with individuals on the talent development programme I think make sure that our targeted action is kind of meaningful and long-lasting and Jamz Supernova, actually, she was just mentioned, was one of our participants on the 2018 development programme so it has been amazing to see her success on the 麻豆社 and kind of that nice collaboration between Keychange and the 50:50 Project as well.

NINA: That is fantastic. You've just brought it full circle for us, Maxie, which is great! So let's bring Millie and Hayley back in and let's start doing some Q&A I think. Please don't forget you can use the Q&A function in Zoom for us, if you have any questions, that would be great. But I'm going to kick us off. You mentioned festivals and I'm thinking we've just spent a year in lockdown, you know, it has stopped festivals and I'm interested to know from all of you, from each of your perspectives, what impact that really has in terms of finding new artists, women's representation particularly, and across the industry as a whole. Maxie, let's start with the bigger, global, wider picture first.

MAXIE: Yes, I mean, as I'm sure many of you will know, the effect of the pandemic has been devastating on the music industry and many of our participants have been - their careers have been paused or set back because of what's happened over the last year. I think that one of our sponsors, the Musicians' Union did a report that a third of all music creators will have to leave the music industry full-stop because of this, and so I think because we know women and gender minorities are disproportionately affected by that, it's a very urgent situation that we need to do whatever we can to respond to what has happened and better understand and support the barriers that women and gender minorities specifically are facing in the music industry, and unfortunately it's no longer kind of at a stage where we can help them to thrive - it's actually helping them to survive at the moment. But I do think it's not all doom and gloom. In the Back to Better conversations that everyone is having, we know that everyone wants to go to a music festival this year, everyone wants to perform at a music festival this year, and so the demand is going to be very, very high and we view that as a positive in terms of both the 50% gender pledge and I'm sure in your work as well, that actually the kind of access to talent at the is not going to be on the usual cycle that exists in the music industry where you kind of tour for six months and then you spend a year writing an album, and then you kind of repeat and have these release campaigns scheduled throughout. There's going to be no such cycles this year. So I think that that provides an amazing opportunities for festivals to programme awesome diverse talent and really set the standard for what the music industry could look like in the future.

NINA: Millie, I think this would be a good one for you to kind of bounce off the back of - what has been your experience looking for new talent and what impact is that going to be having for music festivals moving forward?

MILLIE: I think for us at Introducing over the lockdown we've had more artists uploading to Introducing than ever so it has been amazing and the shows - the local shows around the country have continuously - they stayed on air the majority of lockdown, so they've been able to play out the artists and support new talent. When the festivals were cancelled, we kind of thought of alternative ways to promote the artists on 麻豆社 Sound and on our social media as well, so it's really important for us to continue supporting them, and with our line-ups at the various festivals that we would usually be at, we always make sure that they're 50:50 gender diverse as well and so it's super, super important for us and the Introducing values - Introducing is always for everyone and I think, yeah, I guess like looking at the festivals that have been cancelled, like Reading and Leeds, and then saying they're going ahead again this year, but the line-ups are pretty similar to how they were when they were cancelled and they weren't really that - they weren't great when they were cancelled, the gender split. So it is going to be strange, as in we've paused for a while, and even talking about artists that have still managed to develop through the pandemic and then - like, Griff had done one gig during lockdown and her next will be the Brit Awards.  So it has completely changed the industry, but I think it will be interesting and from an Introducing point of view, it's something we are super passionate about - bringing through the artists to try and change those male-dominated line-ups.

NINA: It is really fascinating to hear that, actually - that pause idea. You know, effectively we haven't done anything, it sounds like, then for a year and we're potentially losing a third of music artists who could have been coming into the pipeline according to the report that Maxie mentioned. What is that looking like when it comes to the content side of creating shows and what you do, Hayley?

HAYLEY: I totally echo what the girls are saying, it feels like a pause on progress. Like the whole global warming thing the pandemic has felt that we've gone backwards in some respects but I feel like in terms of radio the way that we see that is, you know, we might have had artists we were supporting from the grassroots up on shows like Jamz' which is late night probably where some of them are getting their first air play, much like Introducing, and then you don't get that follow-up, as Maxie was saying, about the touring cycle has stopped and therefore you are not seeing that next step, which is they might get a showcase or a gig or a festival slot or, you know, our shows - some of them are signed up to help introducing to sort of like - you know, I emailed Millie back in the day when I worked with Jamz and up until last year, we would say, we would like to see them at Big Weekend or something, so that has had a halt. But on the more positive side I feel like radio has been a bit of a lifeline for artists in that if they are putting music out, hopefully they are uploading it or sending it to us or if they're signed they're getting it pushed out and they are getting a bit of money from that - it is not probably loads but it's keeping the momentum up and they've got place to say feedback their music to. Equally when it comes to shows like radio 1's residency which I have been working on until recently as well, usually we use things like festivals to generate what is the zeitgeist, who is touring at the moment getting loads of hype, who is doing the club circuit for our DJ line-ups and we just couldn't do that this past two line-ups - we've had to kind of side-step and go, right. It's more about the heavy-hitters, who is not touring who we can finally get, someone like Carl Cox or others who we wouldn't normally be able to get on the radio because they wouldn't have the time so it has completely changed the way in which we work and how we would normally book our guests and contributors. But hopefully we still manage to make some change. Our residency line-up is the most diverse it has ever been since it began.

NINA: That is fantastic.

HAYLEY: So there has been some positives out of a pretty awful situation, yeah.

NINA: Absolutely. You were talking about contributors and that's the heart of where 50:50 started was monitoring contributors and experts and we have a question about how different is it monitoring music? So are you doing things differently to just monitoring your contributors? You are looking at your artists, are you looking beyond that - how does it look for you?

HAYLEY: Is that in terms of radio, yeah?

NINA: Yeah.

HAYLEY: Yeah, I have an open dialogue with you guys, which is great, because there is no one size fits all. Like I said at the beginning we work on speech and music programmes and they're all very different, and they're all across different networks, popular networks such as Radio 1 and 1Xtra and also Radio 2 and 6 Music all have different populations.  So with Jamz it was like the guests, because we have two guests a week, that is quite simple in terms of gender split, relatively, but other shows might not have guests on a weekly or monthly basis, so we'll just report them annually instead and kind of do it that way, or something like the Residency shows we make across all three networks, we monitor the actual hosts themselves because they are temporary presenters that might only be there for six months and, yeah, they are artists in their own right, they are just coming in and doing a show for a bit. So yeah, it has been completely flexible and I think we're always looking at new ways we can change it to make it really be impactful for the industry.

NINA: Thank you, Hayley. I'm interesting also to see, Millie, what impact has it had for you? Have you changed what you are monitoring and what you are doing as a result of what we're seeing? Have you had to change anything to try and keep your representation at 50:50?

MILLIE: I don't think so. It has still been - the format of the shows has still been pretty similar throughout the pandemic - just with less live sessions and more at-home sessions, or guests come on via Zoom. Like I said before, just more artists uploading than ever so I feel like the shows have been lucky in having more choice. So from our side of things, monitoring it has been OK.

NINA: Great. We've got a question here from Suzanne Weber, actually, Maxie - super-interesting discussion and good to see a fellow drummer, too! So the question is about the type of musicians that are being counted. Are we only counting frontline artists and singers? So that one is for you, specifically, I think, Millie and Hayley, or are you actually also counting women instrumentalists as well? So there is a few different themes in there, Maxie let's come to you first and look at the overall representation that we're seeing in the music industry - I mean, how is it looking? Is it moving forwards? Are we progressing in terms of gender representation?

MAXIE: I mean I think the problems are so nuanced and they are industry-wide that I think it's really challenging to see progress year-on-year and often disappointing to see not just in response to COVID but to see things like the inclusive initiative release reports on the Billboard 100 where stats moved from around 16-20% up and down. I think actually what is key to that change is initiatives like the 50:50 Project and Keychange as well and many others who encourage the industry to take accountability in every area possible because I think only when we all take responsibility will change happen. I think there are - I mean, PRS For Music is the collection society for songwriters in the UK and the representation is gradually improving, so since PRS Foundation started initiatives such as Women Make Music and Keychange, to respond to the lack of representation, it has gone from about 11% said they were women to around 19% said they were women, but in kind of comparison to the population, that's still extremely low and that's still a lot of talent that we're missing out on and a lot of music that we're missing. So I think that there are looked kind of focusing on representation like these sort of conscious programming initiatives, I think that the music industry needs to take responsibility as a whole in areas like investment, research, education and ultimately acknowledging kind of the challenges and the barriers that are currently there.

NINA: So that is kind of a leadership thing, isn't it, really? It's trying to have that kind of buy-in from the leadership and presumably you need more diversity at that top level - I'm not going to put words into your mouth! But to kind of make that change?

MAXIE: Absolutely, it is that issue. It is the same as headliners at festivals - you need CEOs not just influencing others to take up those positions but also making sure that the policies that are put in place have kind of diverse perspectives to inform them, because otherwise we kind of repeat these cycles of exclusionary policies and it's not just the representation, it's the inclusion that then affects or enforces, I guess. So yeah, I think leadership is incredibly important and I think that all of us as kind of activists, as women in music, and even just as listeners have kind of responsibility in kind of challenging our processes to make sure that we are leading by example and making sure that we are thinking about the opportunities that we're affording people in this industry that we care so much about

NINA: Brilliant. I can see that Hayley and Millie are intensely listening! Let's go to Hayley because I thought I saw you scribbling some notes so I wonder what those were for?! Can I bring you in on this one just to kind of react to what Maxie has just said but also to answer Suzanne's question about what you are actually counting specifically as well, if that's OK?

HAYLEY: Yes, you caught me! It is because I will forget if I don't write notes - it is the ex-journalist in me! I guess, yeah, going back to the question, it sort of just sparked something in me because I'm also an ambassador for The F List which was set up a couple of years ago but really kicked off in lockdown one or two, which is set up by Vic Bain and I think she has been working with Keychange and various other partners as well. She released some pretty damning statistics about the lack of women that were assigned to labels and publishers in the UK specifically, and it is just one of many sort of grassroots groups that are sort of trying to do something about that. So her logging - so she set up a database if people aren't aware of it called The F List, and you can go to the website and if you are a female artist you can create a profile and she started making a list of them in a spreadsheet initially and they looked much like Millie was saying, there are these line-ups that aren't reflective of that there are women out there you are just not looking for them and she is inclusive of gender minorities as well. So, yeah, it is really great. The way that they log it as well is if you've got just one female artist in your band, you are able to upload a profile, because even that is quite minimal in the grand scheme of signings and festival line-ups and gigs and things, so whilst there's probably lots of conversations around that, you've still got a gender minority in your band essentially. So we've sort of used the same sort of thing with our logging on our radio shows, if we've got a band with female members in it, but you know, we're not trying to skew the results - we want them to be accurate. So, you know, usually it's the person who is contributing to the show. So at the moment we're only really getting people on the phone or on Zoom calls, so it will be them speaking and not the entire band, so it's just reflecting that. I think that's it, unless I missed something!

NINA: That sounds great. I remember Millie and I were having a similar conversation when we first started looking at Introducing, how do we even count, is it always going to be the main artist or should it be the group? Millie, what did we end up deciding, I can't remember!

MILLIE: So the way we decide, as in how you count each musician, is whoever is heard by the audience. So if there's a band of, like, four men and one woman, but the woman is the vocalist, then you would count that as one woman. But if she was the guitarist, then it would be like one man, I believe. Yeah, because it's like - because it's obviously all audio and radio, that's kind of who the audience is going to - as a woman you might relate to or not.

NINA: Absolutely. Actually that is the heart of 50:50, isn't it? It is about the perception of the listener. So if they can't foresee what's happening in your particular content, then you know, we're not necessarily monitoring it. But we do know as well that there's evidence - lots of evidence out there that shows that if your workforce is diverse, that the people behind that you can't see and hear, that if they are diverse then you are going to hear that change coming through in your particular product. But yeah, 50:50 is what our listeners are hearing, so thank you very much. We've just had another question from 'anonymous' who has asked, "Do you think that music playlists on major radio networks, not just at the 麻豆社 but commercial radio as well, is still heavily skewed male and if so, why"? So let's ask that part first of that particular question. Millie, while you are up!

MILLIE: Yes, I do think they are heavily skewed male. Again, I echo what everybody else says - it's making the change from the top and working down. It's also making as many people as aware as possible and constantly having those conversations, whether it's with your colleagues or your friends or your family, and then people will kind of continue those conversations and the message will spread. Because we're all chatting and kind of all agreeing with each other, we're like not the - we're the ones that understand that change needs to happen, so you need to reach those people that aren't quite aware of it and, yeah, I do think I'll go back to the Reading and Leeds line-up - I don't want to damn Reading and Leeds but it was pretty bad and there are female artists and bands that - and women who could so easily headline, they are just not being given a fair chance because potentially a male director at the top of a country or music label doesn't think they're good enough, whereas if there was a balance at the top of that label, the outcome would be completely different, and that's like my personal opinion, but I might have gone off the topic of the question, but!

NINA: That is all right, no problem at all - but that is the point, you are really passionate about what you are doing and that is what is going to make the change and make the difference along the way, as Maxie was saying, that we all need to be pushing forward together to improve that representation. So the question was whether it was skewed male, you've answered that most definitely! And also what needs to be done to improve that and you've given a few examples there as well. So I'll see if Hayley has got anything to add to that - Hayley, what would you say? Skewed male, question mark? And if so, what can we do about it?

HAYLEY: Again it is a perception, isn't it, so I wouldn't want to say definitely because I would just be assuming, but I know from speaking to people, I don't know about the music teams, if they are definitely reporting in to you Nina but they are defying logging the 50:50 split of the artists they are putting on playlists but Millie is right, who is at the top of those - we get often quite across Radio 1 at least, I can't speak for every network, they are going to be putting a lot of major label artists up there because that's probably what's selling or being streamed the most and those artists are signed because they've been signed by these people in a room who are probably mostly male. So there's this huge sort of dichotomy of things that are happening here and you can't really pin it on one person, it's a societal problem, but I think schemes like 50:50, The F List and women in control of grassroots groups out there and Keychange that are lobbying these people, and that is the only way to point it out to them that, yeah, you might have to do this, but that is not enough, you need more people coming up from the grassroots.

NINA: Absolutely, and bringing in Keychange, Maxie, so especially high-profile chart shows and playlists, how do we make change to those if we feel that they're skewing male?

MAXIE: I think, like everyone said, and I know I keep saying it, but it's about accountability and actually about that's why the initiatives that Hayley just mentioned are so important, because it's 2021 and the talent is there. There's no excuse anymore. Like initiatives like The F List have thousands of artists, 麻豆社 Introducing has thousands of artists, Keychange, we work with kind of a select few every year who are kind of hand-picked as the future headliners, and so if you just scratch below the surface, you can find that talent and I think it's about that first step of saying, "I no longer want to be part of the problem, I want to be part of the solution". I think that that step is a really difficult one, but it's the vital step that you need to take in this journey and we're at Keychange encouraging all musical organisations at all levels, both the kind of mainstream radio stations and independent labels, management agencies and things like that, because that step for everyone is really important. I think it's really difficult to accept that you're part of a system that's broken and that actually you're feeding into that system and you're damage the pipeline if you are not committing to change, but actually what we've found is that once you start those conversations most people do want the same thing. Most people do want greater diversity and equality in the music industry. But they just don't know where to start on that journey. They don't know what that first step might look like. So what we say is that it's acknowledgement, it's saying, "OK, I am part of this, and I want to make change". There are many initiatives out there who are trying to support people on that journey and that's why I am hopeful about progress, because I think that the conversations that we have and all the initiatives working towards this are doing amazing work, not just in changing the make-up of these organisations but also in supporting awesome talent, too. So yeah, I think that it's kind of a pipeline problem and I hope that eventually it won't just be kind of - it won't be you having to scratch below the surface, it will be that you turn on your radio, your mainstream radio station, and hear, just by accident, hear lots of women and gender minorities as well as what is the norm now. We're not quite there yet and we have to do a bit of work to get there, but it's the responsibility of all of us to kind of commit to that and make that change.

NINA: And talking about kind of creating that change, we will be publishing some figures which will show that there has been progress in the music industry when it comes to those who have been using 50:50. Obviously, I can't reveal those figures yet because our report comes on out on Thursday at 11:00, so please do tune in and find out a bit more about it then, but there is a really good progress story that is happening within the music sector when you look at those who have been involved in 50:50, which is fantastic. One thing I would like to pick up with, and I was thinking about when you were talking about trying to change mindsets and that's part of what we try and do with 50:50, using that data - you know, if you understand what you look like now and identify where you can make change you can make that change, but you need to have the mindset and the buy-in to be able to do that. Millie, how have you managed to do that at Introducing? Because you've got a network of programmes looking for this talent across the UK, how has that worked for you?

MILLIE: So I think it's just like - when you and I, Nina, both launched the project with the teams and it was just kind of catching up with individual teams, so there was 36 local Introducing shows all around the country and some are from slightly smaller areas, so they struggle with the amount of uploads they get, and that means they kind of struggle with the split. Then also, yes, so it was just catching up with the ones all around the country and talking to them about what they were having issues with and thinking of kind of solutions about how we could help them. So it was kind of putting callouts on air and trails and spotlighting artists on social media, just to encourage more - the teams to upload and then to help with their understanding as well. Did I answer that right?

NINA: That's absolutely perfect! So, you know, you are talking about that kind of using different techniques to try and get people to think differently. So, you know, by spotlighting the new talent that you are bringing through, you're trying to get others to think about it and as you say you did this kind of plush, didn't you, to try and highlight that this is 50:50, this is what we're trying to do, we're giving you permission to go out and find women's the voices specifically so that we can make that change and that was a really powerful thing that we saw and that I hope has made a lot of difference to Introducing, and Hayley, was it something that you had seen at Somethin' Else?

HAYLEY: Yes, Millie is right in that I think the best approach it to speak to people individually. There's still work to be done across some of the shows, and they deal with different genres of music, which sometimes can be trickier, or the talent themselves that host the show might not be as open, so you have to have individual conversations with each of them about what works best and how they monitor might be different, as we've mentioned before.

NINA: Did you ever get any kind of pushback from anyone saying, "We already have the best artists on"?

HAYLEY: I think some producers did. I was lucky that I was working on shows - like Jamz, like everyone mentioned, is really on top of her game and female, and so there is this unconscious bias and I think we here are fully on board with it probably because of our gender and various other things but other people might not be in the fore of their minds but it goes back as well to all of the diversities conversations that have been coming to the fore in the last year, it's acknowledging that you're maybe not part of the problem but that you might be part of the problem, like when it comes to race as well, with Radio 1's residency, it was like we really need to up our game, we might have got the gender split right but it doesn't end there. So, yeah, there are some producers and presenters that have found it trickier than others. Because people don't like to be told that they're doing something wrong. You quite often get defensive and I think that's what's happening with festival line-ups - they're getting on the defence instead of acknowledging that, look, it is not a personal attack on you, it's just that you have the power to do something about this if you just accept that something needs to be done, instead of sort of just turning a blind eye to it. Yeah, I think that works across the board with radio as well.

NINA: Brilliant, thank you. We've got another question which is a good one. So we're an all-female line-up here right now for this particular session. We did ask a few of our male colleagues to see if they would come forward and be part of this panel but actually, bizarrely - not bizarrely, brilliantly, they wanted to put forward their wonderful female colleagues to come and talk about women's representation, but how can we make sure that men are part of this conversation and don't feel alienated and also with other gender as well? Hayley, while you are still up!

HAYLEY: I have to think on my feet! Yes, allyship is a big thing, isn't it? I mean I think this sort of encouraged me to go back to some of the other teams - you know, I'm not in charge of them, I have a vested interest in this. So I have been really nerdy about how I log it and doing it on time and all the rest of it, and other teams maybe not so much, like I said it is not at the fore of their minds, maybe, or there's just pressure to turn things around in content and radio, so sometimes these things, like Millie said at the beginning, you don't want it to feel like a workload. So it's having conversations, I suppose, with male colleagues about how important it is, really, and I know that they will be really keen to log other aspects, like we said, about other forms of diversity moving forward as well, not just gender, and some of them might relate to that better than this, you know? And it all feeds in. But yeah, like across the board at Somethin' Else - like we've set up this Women in Somethin' Else group, particularly off the back of the Sarah Everard case not long ago and various other awful things that have happened in the last year, and that has really helped and we're all trying to find people that can come in and talk to us about intersectionality and allyship and how we can get to the bottom of that because I don't think that we have the answers yet. But hopeful!

NINA: Absolutely. I think one of the things that we're doing with 50:50 is we're moving it to be monitoring not just only gender but also ethnicity and disability and that's Somethin' Else are going to be coming on board with at some point if you haven't already. And Millie, I will throw the question to you as well about allyship - is that something that at Introducing has been quite important?

MILLIE: Yes, definitely. I think we're really lucky, everyone kind of understands what we're trying to do here and I think personally, if you didn't understand, I would be like, well, why? Because for so long I guess - Hayley mentioned it earlier and maybe Maxie, but it's society that also needs to change and I think there's probably a lot of statistics that would show that men have kind of in certain situations like getting jobs and things like that, in job interviews, are more likely to get the role over a woman or something like that. So it's like, yeah, it's 2021 now - if you don't like it, like, wake up. But you need to be - yeah. It's just education and at Introducing we have been super-lucky with everyone that we work with. But I just think, like, hello?!

NINA: Absolutely! Maxie, hello! What do you say? Education - absolutely. Allyship - how do we keep our male colleagues part of this conversation and create that inclusion across all gender?

MAXIE: Well I think it's important to say that diversity doesn't just affect women and gender minorities - it affects everyone. If we all work together to make positive change and to support more people who don't look like us, essentially, then I think that we'll have - like we will be able to kind of not just access more exciting talent but more talent, more ideas, more innovation across the board, and so Keychange works with kind of orchestras, with radio stations, but also with record labels and apps and things like that, so I think that it's - allyship is so important because it's the only way that change will actually happen in a meaningful way. Like Millie said, we're kind of preaching to the converted here. It's important that we try to make people aware that we're losing talent, and that is devastating for everyone. Of course there are structures that need to be changed so that people don't experience barriers and hardship in the music industry, but alongside that, I mean, everyone works in the music industry because they love music and so I think it's important to keep talking about how we can make sure that the best music is allowed to realise its potential and that is by challenging the damaging structures that exist and, yeah, aiming for that kind of exciting future where people don't have to leave the industry because of their gender or because of their race. That shouldn't be happening and the future where that doesn't happen is an exciting proposition for everyone, no matter what your background, gender or sexuality or any kind of protected characteristics that we could talk about.

NINA: Thank you. And you've kind of brought me on to the point that I wanted to end on, which is about the future - where do we see the future and how do we end on a positive and thing about those practical steps that we can take to make sure that we are creating that new representative world that the music industry is reflective of the world around us? What would be your number one tip, Maxie, while you're up?! And you can't say the 50:50 Project by the way!

MAXIE: Am I allowed to say, "Sign the Keychange pledge"?!

NINA: You can!

MAXIE: On our website there is a section call "What can I do" so it is giving anyone, no matter who you are, a music creator, a producer, a listener, a politician, kind of access points to the change that they can make. But yeah I think it's just about accountability and trying to move away from that kind of defensiveness, like being open to change and whatever that means.

NINA: So having the permission to do something. I call it happy fail - take a risk, you know.

MAXIE: Yes.

NINA: Knowing you might make something really positive out of it but if it doesn't work, so what, it does matter! Hayley, what would be your top tip?

HAYLEY: Gosh! I was just going to say just be aware of - from a content creator point of view - what are you consuming and what music are you listening to and is that reflective in your programmes, just being aware of your unconscious bias, I suppose. I don't know if that is particularly galvanising but I think Maxie had a really good point there and I'm going to have to Google those "What to do" tips.

NINA: Fantastic! I think we will all be doing that shortly. Yes, absolutely, I think you're right, you know, we have to be careful that we just don't look at things through just our own prism, right, and our own particular viewpoint? So thinking about what others might be wanting to listen to - others might be hearing. And that's about widening the pool and that's something that we talk about, again, quite a lot, it's about trying to see if we can hear the voices from elsewhere. So yeah, I think that is a brilliant point to make, thank you, Hayley. Millie, last but not least, what would your top tip be?

MILLIE: I think we're all really lucky that we're working daily or monthly so these projects, so it's always in the forefront of our mind, and to just be aware that it isn't in the forefront of everyone else's mind. So have those conversations with people and I think just always be kind and positive and, yeah, and then a change will happen.

NINA: Great, thank you. Right, well, we have officially run out of time, this was supposed to be a 50-minute session and I apologise, I've just realised I've gone over, so thank you very much for being here. Millie, Hayley, Maxie, we really appreciate you being on the panel - really interesting conversations. And from me and from the 50:50 team, we'd love you all to join us on Thursday to hear those results, because Music have done really, really well! I keep saying that, but yeah! So it would be great for you guys to come and join us at that point and from our team, please keep on counting and enjoy the rest of your afternoon. Take care.